Vitali Klitschko vs Evander Holyfield

I think that is a about right. But Sdunek did not even try to talk him out of it. To the contrary, he supported Vitali

 

@ Blade, still waiting for you reply. You have ten questions to answer, and your own " List " to agree or disagree with.

In round three ( Original HBO broadcast ) Vitali said his arm was hurting him via HBO interpreter.

I agree Sdunek, who didn't know how to use enswell and gives mediocre at best advice, probably could have talked Vitali out of it.

If Dundee, who talked Ali out of quitting was Vitali's trainer, he probably fights on. If Sundek was Ali's trainer, Ali loses by quitting to Liston.
Vitali achieved greatness without a truly great trainer. He stuck with Sdunek for his career.

 

No you talk crap. Everybody knows Byrd is a very humble and honest type of guy. What he says is the truth. They devised a gameplan for Wlad to get the belt back , not Vitali.

So lets review - Byrd got off the couch on 8 days notice, he never saw footage of Vitali on film , he had no gameplan , was outweighed massively and had to make up a strategy as he went along.

Vitali from the opening bell struggled to land a clean glove on Byrd who was attempting to figure out his gameplan on the fly... Vitali was up on the cards purely by virtue of Byrd doing absolutely nothing.

Byrd began to adapt and Vitali began to swat at thin air which is probably why he injured himself. Its safer to throw loaded shots at a bag than it is to throw them at thin air , but you wouldn't know anything about that.
Vitali was clearly uncomfortable with Byrds slick counter punching style. His own offensive was only barely effective due to size.
Byrd with a full camp and knowledge of Vitali's basic style would have given him a better advantage in the rematch , and Vitali knew that which is why he shot down the rematch..

Losing to and failing to rematch Byrd is a massive skidmark on Vitali's career. The only way Holyfield loses to Vitali is if he old and shot to bits.. You know that too , which is why you keep putting forward those past prim versions of Holyfield to prove your case.

 

No he didn't say it in round 3 , he said it in the post fight interview with Merchant. There's a difference.

 

Lot of talk about peds here.
Which of them was caught using them ?
Vitali ,[when kick boxing,] or Evander?

 

Here is my response:
1) Irrelevant for the purpose of thisthread as Holyfield was past prime, The thread is about prime Holyfield.
2) Who was caught cheating Vitali or Holyfield?
3) Which common opponents? Please specify
4) Factually incorrect: Holyfield is actually 1-3-1. And yes I think Vitali would do worse. Vitali's best chance would be against Bowe of Holyfield III. I am not sure he would win though.
5) Tyson was past his best but would have been the best opponent and name on Vitali's winning column.
6) No because I feel the second fight could have been a draw and was not judged fairly. The first fight, Lewis cleanly won but it should not be regarded in isolation in my opinion.
7) It does not factor into this debate at all. Holyfield was 41 and past prime by the time he fought Toney, The thread is about prime Holyfield.
8) I can't say. In the ATGs heavyweight rankings, he ranks below Vitali if that is what you mean.
9) Out of scope of the thread. No relevance.
10) I would not say that. He beat Holmes, Bowe, Foreman and has draw with Lewis which were big men. In his 2 losses with Riddick, Bowe beat him on he inside. He fought on even terms with Lewis II and was already past his best. Yeah Lewis did better from the outside in both fights but I think Vitali is not quite on the same level as Lewis.

 

Once this^ is understood, the rest becomes academic.

 

BLADE 2,

1) Irrelevant for the purpose of this thread as Holyfield was past prime, The thread is about prime Holyfield.

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2) Who was caught cheating Vitali or Holyfield?

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3) Which common opponents? Please specify

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4) Factually incorrect: Holyfield is actually 1-3-1. And yes I think Vitali would do worse. Vitali's best chance would be against Bowe of Holyfield III. I am not sure he would win though.

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5) Tyson was past his best but would have been the best opponent and name on Vitali's winning column.

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6) No because I feel the second fight could have been a draw and was not judged fairly. The first fight, Lewis cleanly won but it should not be regarded in isolation in my opinion.

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7) It does not factor into this debate at all. Holyfield was 41 and past prime by the time he fought Toney, The thread is about prime Holyfield.

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8) I can't say. In the ATGs heavyweight rankings, he ranks below Vitali if that is what you mean.

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9) Out of scope of the thread. No relevance.

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10) I would not say that. He beat Holmes, Bowe, Foreman and has draw with Lewis which were big men. In his 2 losses with Riddick, Bowe beat him on he inside. He fought on even terms with Lewis II and was already past his best. Yeah Lewis did better from the outside in both fights but I think Vitali is not quite on the same level as Lewis.

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Original 10 questions for those who want to answer Yes or No.

1 ) Do you think Holyfield beat Ruiz in the first fight? I say Holy should be 0-2-1...vs Ruiz.

2 ) Do think PED's had anything to do with his trasformation in body tyes from 190 to 210-220?

3 ) Do you agree Holyfield performed worse vs common opponents that Vitali fought?

4 ) Holyfield is 1-4 vs Lewis and Bowe on fair cards. Don't you think Vitali could at least o this well?

5 ) How past it was Mike Tyson? The 1980's version vs. the 1996 version Holyfield beat?

6 ) Can you admit the draw with Lennox Lewis was absolute bogus?

7 ) How much does getting Ko'd by a 5'10" non punching blown up middleweight at age 40 factor into this debate? Toney was in his mid 30's and fat.

8 ) Where would you rank Moorer, in the top 50 if he's even there. He's 1-1 vs Holyfield.

9 ) Do you agree that Holyfield was a dirty fighter?

10 ) Do you agree that Holyfield had trouble with bigger men in shape with skills?

 

@Mendoza thinks Vitali is in the same class as Lewis and Bowe. lol . In reality he's in the same class as guys like Joe Bugner , Gerry Coetzee , Pinky Thomas , Kubrat Pulev , Jorge Gonzalez , Wilder.

And in terms of skills - bellow guys like Tucker , Golota , Fury , Wlad , AJ.

Its totally unknown if Vitali could have beaten a guy like Povetkin. Povetkin is miles better than the guys Vitali beat , and Holyfield is better than Povetkin.

 

Wilder beat Arroela with one arm.. He didn't injure his arm in the fight, he went into the fight injured.

What does that say about Vitali's resume when a one armed Wilder dominated and knocked out one of his best opponents with ONE arm!!!

 

I honestly don't think nearly anyone in this thread has a clue about boxing. The support of either fighter seems completely along tribal aliances and everyone wants to degrade their tribal rival.

IIRC Vitali got caught in the amateurs. He claimed it was steroid used for joint injury pain. If that's true, kind of fair enough. If he cheated as an amateur he cheated as a pro

Holyfield we know got caught purchasing performancing enhancing drugs as a pro.

Making the case Vitali got caught and Holyfield didn't is completely disengous. Vitali may have been juicing or taking as a pro but he wasn't actually incredible muscular. We know Holyfield was purchasing PEDs as a pro and it was 99.9% because he was using the PEDs.

Want to know what Tyson said was his biggest career regret was? Not using Human Growth Hormone. He's pretty much admitting he used steroids in that one claim but is also admitting he'd gone a step further and used steroids and any other PED that may have helped him.

 

Mendoza is right, Vitaly is in the same class as Bowe and Lewis.
He'd mop the floor with the other guys you mentioned.

Vitaly is skilled enough. Bird said Vitaly was more awkward and hard to figure out.
Plus it's not just about being skilled, strength and size matter a lot. Foreman beat plenty of boxers that were more skilled than him just cause he had so much power.

Vitaly would have no problem with Povetkin whatsoever.
And he beats Holyfield's overrated arse

 

Holyfield’s my favorite heavyweight, but I think your right, Holyfield is pretty overrated at times and I think Vitali could beat him, not easily though

 

Vitali proved he wasn't in the same class as the oldest and slowest version of Lewis that ever entered the ring. . And he certainty isn't in the same class resume wise so you are combating facts with pure fantasy. Its like saying a minor league team is better than a major league team.

When did Byrd say that about Vitali? Link? Byrd said the smartest he ever faced was a shot to chit Holyfield.

SMARTEST
Evander Holyfield: He tried to put you in traps. I’m not stupid in the ring, but he tried to trap me in the corner. It was a cat and mouse game. He would take steps both ways to try to trap me. I had to go in my bag of tricks. He used his head at certain times. It was smart stuff and it breaks a guy down in the course of the fight.

Vitali also never beat anybody remotely good as Povetkin so to say he could beat him easily is more fantasy.

It would be silly to think Povetkin's left hook counter and right hand over the top wouldn't cause Vitali major issues.