I guess no one. But I was talking about his place on all-time lists. I suppose some might make a decent argument for Mayweather Jr, but I'd have Leonard ahead..
Even though his stop at welter was short I'd have him much higher, he realistically could beat anyone in the top 10 not named Sugar Ray Robinson. I've read the only reason he moved to 154 is that he didn't want to put the work in to fight at 147 any longer which fits with the terrible efforts he put out later against Kirkland Laing and Benitez
He put in a strong effort against Benitez, actually. He just wasn't a real Jr. Middle. Benitez was, and a great one at that.
I wouldn't necessarily argue with Duran being in the Top-20 but, in terms of achievement, within the class, it's hard to place him too far up that list. Even though I agree that he could arguably beat anyone at Welterweight, bar Robinson, his placement needs to be tempered by achievement. How far do the Palomino and Leonard wins take him? By how much does the New Orleans loss peg him back? As I alluded to, earlier - a difficult one. But, yes - on his day - a head-to-head favorite against most.
I say Ray L. beats all and gives Robinson a hell of a fight. Duran as well .. the best Duran , H2H, a top five welter for sure .. Hearns, a gutsy warrior is getting very over rated by many , especially at welter .. talk about one big division win .. people forget his fights against Harold Weston and Randy Shields ..
Realistically Duran may have only been the 4th best welterweight during his brief time at the weight. That doesn't bode well for his all time ranking.
Has a ( vastly ) better win in Leonard than Hearns ever got at that weight. Spanked Palomino. Duran is not overrated. People forget that he skipped light welterweight completely, which very possibly could have been his best weight class... Think about that.
Hearns had fought less than 70 rounds of professional boxing when he met Weston. Weston had only just lost by decision to Benitez and was a top 6 welter going into that fight. It was a good learning experience of the type that many budding greats have. Shields was tough as nails and a top 6 welterweight at the time. While it was a rough dirty fight at times many did not give him a single round. Hearns has other notable work at the weight too. Clyde Gray was somewhere around #3 when Hearns beat him in just his 15th pro fight. Bruce Curry was on the fringes. Tho not at 147 he whipped Mike Colbert who was a top 10 middleweight. Espada is another win over a top 10 welterweight. Primera was also a top 10 weltweight when Hearns beat him. So that's at least 5 top 10 welterweights beaten by Hearns without even counting Ceuvas HG. Most don't realize he has a nice body of work there over a pretty short period of time. Both he and Sugar Ray were matched quite tough.
I need to be schooled how great Palomino was and how great he was when he took that fight. He retired retired after that fight. Duran looked great in that Palomino fight but that may have been somewhat due to Palomino not being at his best that night and looking for a reason to retire. I think that Hearns KOs that Palomino in a few rounds as well as Leonard. For me that leaves the win over Leonard the only thing to talk about for Duran at welter. It was not a fluke...but he had a chance to do it again and he quit. Duran at welter had one splendid fight where he looked like one of the best ever at that weight. But honestly...take away the Leonard fights and he accomplished nothing and had he faced Hearns instead of Leonard is it a reasonable chance he loses...and not on points. Even in the fight that he won against Leonard was so close that it isn’t clear the absolute winner. It isn’t like he beat Leonard up. Hearns was beating Leonard up when Hearns’ chin was revealed to be what it was.
I personally believe Duran is overrated at LW P4P and WW and above. But I get a sense that you are being biased against him, although I appreciate your thought out responses and posts so far. To me in your OP you mention scoring the first fight for SRL “at times”, and I can in no way see that? I could see close but I personally see clear? To me to score that fight for Leonard, it seems one almost has to be looking to score it intentionally either for Leonard or against Duran. In the 2nd quote you again mention it as so close there is no clear winner? Even most die Hard SRL fans acknowledge that he lost this fight even if they preface it with “he fought the wrong fight”. I hate the No Mas fight (and don’t want to revisit the reasons for the “quit”, at this time), but it is not like he was getting schooled by SRL in this second fight like it sometimes get made out to be. He was trailing by 2 pts and 1 pt on the judges cards at the time of Stoppage. I do think he was great P4P and worthy of discussion for top 10 ATG, but not a great WW. But TBF he did manage (post prime above his natural weight) to beat the consensus? #2 ATG WW in his prime h2h. That is a pretty major issue to consider when evaluating him.
I don't see what makes Sugar Ray Leonard the consensus #2 welterweight based on his work at welterweight. There are a number of other guys who have a great case. What about Napoles, Gavilan, Griffith, etc
That question would be better asked and answered in this thread https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...ginal-8-atg-deadline-in-3-weeks-aug-3.651034/ where it seems he has stood at 2 on every list.
Thanks for the reply. I want to start by saying I have Duran in my top ten P4P. I think his lightweight career can use a critical assessment but, all one will find if brilliance against mostly inferior opponents because he was one of the best ever at that weight. 71-1 61KOs. Those approach Robinson like numbers. I am working to try not to be biased. It is too easy for me to say that he beat Leonard and welter therefor...but, I see 9-1 4KOs and that is very thin when I start talking about all time rankings at that weight. With one awesome win, one other “name” win and a quit...I think it is responsible and healthy to do a quality check. Now with the scoring of the Leonard - Duran fight. I am going to score it now and post my scores for assessment. Duran-Leonard II. Duran did OK and won some rounds but that last round Leonard was outright mocking him and still hitting him and it was embarrassing.
We scored this as a forum about a year and half ago, just in case you want to post your card there or even just wake up a sleeping thread lol. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/fight-of-the-week-1-roberto-duran-ray-leonard-i.617596/
I do appreciate your points as always JT , you're a very sharp guy , I just see it a bit different .. Hearns was tiring and looking beatable when Weston was thumbed and had too stop .. Shields was tough but not a great fighter .. he went on to the late rounds and showed that Hearns stamina was dicey and his power diminished late .. even in the Baez fight before Leonard he looked very wild and overzealous looking for a big KO before the huge showdown .. I watched Hearn's his whole career .. he was courageous, fast, a huge puncher with the right hand and a freakish figure .. that said, even at his best he was highly flawed .. his chin was never great, he was vulnerable to body punishment, his stamina was questionable if he did not control the pace .. he had one big win at welter against Cuevas .. then post Leonard his career at 147 was over .. he adapted to 154, what would be his best weight but even then did not great against Singletary, Sutherland or Minchillo .. his absolute peak was against Duran .. maybe he always beats Duran but Duran came into that fight with the same unfocused look Lewis did against McCall the first time .. at middleweight Hearns was crushed early by Hagler losing v his legs in the first round .. he was shaky as hell against Kitchen, Roldan and Barkley .. for all the talk of him getting robbed in the Leonard rematch there is little memory of him hanging on for his life I the last round to avoid an exact repeat of their first fight .. Back to welter still I find him over rated .. I think Tito had a much more accomplished career as did Oscar .. as did a prime Curry .. I am not saying I didn't love watching the guy. He was super exciting and had some of the most amazing wins and losses .. I just think he was always a flawed and vulnerable fighter in addition to being such an explosive one that you just never knew ..
