Expert opinions on Marciano VS Liston

Liston was bigger and stronger than a prime Joe Louis. But in his prime, Louis was able to beat many fighters who were bigger and stronger than he was. The strength itself, while an asset, is therefore not a legitimate thing that is better than prime Louis in a boxing sense is it?

Being Shorter than Joe Louis but perhaps 5-8lb heavier than championship joe Louis shouldn’t make Sonny that much bigger. Longer reach but shorter everything else relevant to fighting but marginally heavier isn’t an issue at all.

Liston was not better at anticipating blows than a prime Joe Louis. This cannot be a majority view.

better chin, better jab, better body puncher....I cannot agree. There are too many examples where Prime Joe Louis has the better chin, better jab, better body puncher by comparison to Sonny Liston.

He got hit on the chin by Max Baer but came blazing back. Who thinks Max Baer is not more proven than Cleveland Williams as a puncher?

Liston had a booming jab. It was a great punch. But Louis’ jab was phenomenal. More versatile. Stiff and faster and hard. It could set up what he wanted to do or break up what the other guy was about to do. It’s a better weapon.defensive and offensive.

Listons jab is great too. I don’t think it’s better.

I don’t think there is any evidence than Sonny Liston was better on the outside, better at making in ring adjustments than Joe Louis was. I can’t agree with that.

 

Doc Williams was a journeyman who was coming off a ko loss to Dale Hall. The fact that Bivins barely scraped a split decision against him shows the level he was at.

 

In what way does that retract from the kind of fighter Bivins was? Have you watched the film? Doc Williams was a tough fighter actually. His record is littered with decent names. Doc beat Charley Burley, Henry Hall, Bob Satterfeild and Bert Lytell. He gave Archie Moore life and death and went the distance with Clarance Henry, Bob Baker and Nino Valdes. He was in good company.

If Louis beat a bad version of Bivins, what was Bivins doing looking good on film beating a guy like that afterwards? Bivins also beat Coley Wallace and Mike Dejohn after Louis too.

Joe Louis’ win over Jimmy Bivins is overlooked. It was a good win over a good fighter.

 

That half inch difference in height will be the decider!

 

It doesn't detract from the kind of fighter Bivins was that he was barely able to get a decision against a man who had been knocked out by a journeyman in his last fight and who would be clearly outpointed by another journeyman in his next fight?

Williams had been a fair light-heavyweight fringe contender in the late 40s but had very little success after moving up to heavy. Typically he would make a bright start and then fade in the later rounds, which is exactly what happened against Bivins.

 

Dumb again and you are dumb!
Liston didn't punch harder than Marciano!Only Marciano could punish 300lb heavybag for 15 rounds without stoping!
KO percentage is irrelevant!So accoeding to you Shavers KO percentage proves nothing?He has highest KO ratio with a reason like Marciano!
Also Foreman had higher percentage than Tyson and Liston proves that ge hit alot harder!
KO percentage proves he had very big punching output!
Nope he wouldn't!Ezzard and Walcott would outbox him to death worse than Machen and Marshall did!
50/50 against Louis and Moore would give him a boxing school!
Marciano faced alot better oponents than Liston and much better fighter and KOed them all!Liston could not even KO much worse oponents!
Marciano faced Louis,Charlesx2,Walcottx2,Moore,Simmons...
Liston faced Valdes,Williams,Patterson and Machen and struggled against almost all of them!
Ezzard Charles who spared with Liston said that he didn't hit that much hard and mentioned that Marciano is the strongest and hit hardest!
Also Marciano and Liston both tested punching machine when Rocky was in very long retirement and still machine shows that Marciano hit harder!
It was not a dive Ljston was just beaten by Ali!Ali make his face look like a sandwich and he knocked him clearly in second fight!KO is the Ko and please stop with excuses!
Heart and stamina are very important and Marciano would not only past 5 rounds but would beat Liston late!
So Marciano wouldn't past 5 rounds but Machen,Martin,Iron Scrap Johnson,Chuck Wepner did?You are clearly very stupid to say all those bums are more durable than Rocky!
Marciano not only was more durable than all of them but punched harder than anyone Liston ever faced!
If anyone would get KOed it would be Liston because he sucked for a right hand which Foster and Martin prvoes and Marciano had helluva right!
Marciano would past because he was better than those tomato cans and would beat Liston late due to his betfer chin,heart,stamina and punching power!

 

Burley was a welter /middle Lytell weighed 169lbs for that fight Hall was a journeyman light heavy.This constant hyping of second raters is very tiresome.
"Gave Moore life and death?"He fought him 3 times ,and was stopped each time.

 

What is tiresome is you looking at the result rather than the fight or the circumstance of the fight. When they fought Doc was a similar weight to Burley. One of those Moore fights was an absolute war. Moore had to come from behind to knock him out. He’d been staggered and “on the brink” earlier in the contest.

yes Doc Williams was a second rater. But he was a good value second rater. He was competitive enough to swap results with very good men yes or no? Even in his last fight he beat Satterfield didn’t he?

Sure Doc got trounced a few times, but if there is film of him giving his all in a good performance and being competitive enough to make a decent fight Of it you know that it also takes good fighter to beat him. View the fight.

Bivins is a much overlooked win for Joe Louis. The Bivins v Doc Williams fight that came afterward proves it.

 

Wins over welters/middles no matter what the winner weighed to not correlate to being a good heavyweight. Do you ever wonder why so many get on your back?

 

It correlates to being a good 6’3” opponent if the film shows him in a good fight against a good heavyweight. What are you talking about?

There’s a handful who disagree with my ideas and give me undeserved abuse. That’s all. I bare no grudges nor do I hate my opponents even if it is a favour that is rarely returned.

There are just as many who agree with me and like my posts. So it’s neither hear nor there.

we are all free to agree or disagree with one another.

 

"BRILLIANT!...

 

It’s not a lie to say that Sonny was shorter on everything apart from reach relevant to fighting. The Neck, chest, biceps, forearm are not relevant to fighting. Height and reach are relevant. Sonny had the edge in reach and Joe the edge in height. I acknowledged this. Where is the lie in that? Weight is a negligible point too. Whoever won a fight because of a chest advantage! Whoever realised that So many fights were won because one guy had a thicker neck?

if you want me to list Joe Louis’s faults, or Marcianos faults I am happy to do this. On this thread alone I listed all the champions I believe would beat Marciano. I don’t know where you get this idea that I don’t have an ounce of objectivity whenever I make a case. I am simply answering questions here.

Did Max land full blooded right hands against Joe Louis? Sure he had a broken hand. He still landed full blooded right hands in their fight. The film shows this. So how can it be dishonest to quote what can seen on film!

And Joe Louis fought a much better array of elite fighters didn’t he? It’s well documented that Sonny beat a swath of elite fighters...but they do not compare in number to them champions and elite fighters Joe Louis fought in total. It is likely Sonny might have been dropped more times if he fought as many as Louis had.

Liston had a very hard jab. Indeed it was almost like a knockout blow. But it doesn’t make it more effective than the faster, more versatile jab that Louis had. One criticism of Sonnys jab at one part of his career was that is was almost too hard in that it knocked an opponent out of distance for the follow up. By comparison Louis could knock a guys head up with his jab into the path of an oncoming punch making a sequence more deadly.

But if you are going only for outright ramrod power then there is a case for Sonny. But there is more to a jab than simply this. I was saying Louis’s jab was better whilst acknowledging Liston had a great jab too.

I have not said anything shameful or dishonest at all. It might surprise you that it is not shameful or dishonest to hear an opposing view or a case presented that contradicts what you might believe. It doesn’t make it a lie just because you don’t want to hear it.

please watch the fight. Conn was fighting for his life in most of the rounds. Yes he was always ahead, and it was because billy fought like a tiger to keep Louis off him each time Joe got close. eventually conn was forced to spend the last of his reserves. But conn was hurt first. That’s why he shot his load. Regardless of what went into folklore or what he famously said. Billy had to fight his way out of a corner. He was hurt. But Louis came back at him once he was spent. It’s all on film.

 

It is you who is the dumb one as I've proven in countless other threads.

Liston did punch harder than Marciano. And the fact that Marciano could hit a heavy bag for a long period of time is irrelevant.

As I've already told you, Shavers's KO percentage is below 50% against HW's that weigh +215 pounds.
Both Shavers and Marciano have high KO percentages cause they mostly fought bums and small men.

Liston beats the **** out of Charles, Walcott, Louis and Moore. They're too small to stand a chance against him.

Liston would beat all the guys Marciano beat with ease.

You're CLUELESS clown, how did he "struggle" when he DESTROYED Valdez, Williams and Patterson on 2 separate occasions in under 3 rounds ?!??
Machen was the only one that lasted the distance and Liston won a unanimous decision.

Sparring ain't real fighting. Very few boxers go all out in sparring.
Foreman also sparred with Liston and said Liston was the only one to back him up.

Show me proof of that.

Only an brainless dummy like you believes a powder puff puncher like Ali could ever KO Liston.
Liston simply chose not to get up. Maybe he thought he wasn't gonna win the fight, maybe he was threatened by the Black Muslims as Paul Gallenders says, maybe the mob paid or threatened him.
We will never know why, but the fact remains that that weak punch was never gonna keep someone like Liston down.

Heart and stamina don't mean **** unless the fighters are closely matched and this ain't the case.

Apart from the Machen fight, Liston was in his 40's when he faced those guys.
And Machen was a slick boxer that didn't stay to trade with Liston the way Marciano would, which will be his downfall.

Marciano wouldn't do ****, Liston OBLITERATES him.

 

On every thread I proved you are very stupid and just troll!Only dumb man can stated that Tyson hitbharder than Shavers!

He didn't!
Again Marciano beat more Hall of famers,had bigger KO ratio,tested punch on machine and even Ezzard said he punched harder than Liston which proves everything!

I already told you are stupid because KO percentage of size dosen't matter if all those big guys were tomato cans!Ko percentage against Hall of famers matters and thaf is important!
Shavers and Marciano had bigger KO ratio against HOFamers than Tyson!That is important not Mike high percentage against big tomato cans like Sammy Scaff,Hextor Mercedes....but only hall of famers!Hall of famers>>>>tomato cans 230+lbs like Scaff,Thomas.....
They mostly fought best fighters,average size mans and HOfamers which are much better than big tomato cans!

Walcott would beat Liston and outboxed him very easy!Liston is not Louis and Machen is not Walcott!Walcott would frustrate Liston and beat him to the punch!
Charles already beat Liston few times in spaeing and again Machen was poor mans Ezzard and Ezzard would outbox Liston!
Moore wpuld give him good scrap it is 50/50 since few oponents who were common said Liston hit a bit harder but Moore was better boxer and much more complicated to win!Just like one guy said:Liston hit me once hard but never knocked me but Moore didn't hit me that much hard but was much sharper and Knocked me out!
Louis would beat Liston because he was bigger,faster,better chin,better jab...even Liston said that!

Sparing is very close to real fight!Holyfield beat Tyson in sparing and beat him late!
Holmes did the same thing on Ali just like Ali did to Ellis!Sparing matters very much!
And Liston was beaten too much in sparing!Ezzard,Martin,Bugner,Foster...all beat him in sparing!
George is just only humble and was green 18 years old kid when he spared experienced Liston and when he got experience he beat him in next year sparing!
What about green Liston vs Green Foreman?Foreman would kill him!

He struggled agaimst ancient Valdes who almost knocked him out and close his full eye woth one punch!
Williams broke his nose,ribs and pushed hom around and Liston struggled to beat him!
Machen outboxed him easy and Liston was so frustrated that he punched him in the nuts twice!
Only clueless clow arsehole here is you and please troll don't use same quotes every time!

There are many magazines and Marciano son who was there to tell the story!
According to pucnhing machine Liston punch was equal as 44 magnum and Marciano was equal as piercing bullet and could lift 1000 pounds 9 feets of the ground!

Only brainless stupid arsehole who still belive Liston could beat Ali but Ali was just better and beat the **** out of a him!Ali was so "weak" puncher that stopped 17 of his 19 opponents and knocked guys more durable than Liston!
Ali was equal puncher as Martin and Martin also knocked Liston!
He was not very hard puncher but sharp puncher which is better than just puncher!
Again Nino Valdez was good puncher better than Moore but Moore was sharper!Sharper was better than hard puncher!
Those muslims and other stupid things are just rummors whom Liston spread himself because he was angry cuz he lost against Ali twice!
Liston was not threatened by anyone and Ali just beat him!Those are just rumors and punch was real accorsing to all experts and even camera!Ali just caught him with sharp punch and Liston was straight on his ass!He didn't want to get up because he knew Ali would beat him again even worse!
That "weak" punch knocked Moore,Bonavena and Foreman and those guys were more durable than Liston again!

Same was told for Holyfield but he still beat Tyson!
They said Holyfield stamina and heart won't matter but it did!
That's case here also!

Again stupid rumor and lie!
Liston was 28 years old for Machen fight and he was born in 1932 which his mother father Tobi and Liston himself admitted!He was listed in 1952 as 20 years old!He was just bigger than others like Tyson was!
Liston was in his late 20s early 30s when he faced all of them and that age rumor is just spread by Muhammad Ali!
Machen was not slick boxer but boxer puncher and didn't Liston used alchohol on his gloves to blind Ali and Machen?
Martin traded with Liston and knocked him and Martin is not Marciano!
Liston biggest downfall would be trading with Marciano as Louis did!Sonny could only box and move to win!It would be Sonny downfall to trade woth guy with better chin,heart,punch and stamina!That would cost him later very bad!
Marciano would beat him to the punch!

Only guy who "oblitearates" Marciano could be Foreman but even that is not for sure!
Marciano KILLS LISTON LATE BY KO IN ROUND 12!
AND THE WINNER IS ROCKY MARCIANO BY KO FROM BROCKTON,MASS!