When RRJ & Floyd were both active, how come nobody...

Because I’m responding to his replies, genius.

 

Ha!

Really?

You post absolute illogical nonsense that sees you reduced to typing out only sarcastic replies, as that’s the only option that you find yourself left with.

What did you do a few weeks ago?

You typed out ‘lol’ to 5 different posts because you couldn’t give a proper response.

It’s me who finds amusement in your posts.

My favourite ones are your ATG ones where you invent ridiculous obstacles before eventually changing your mind.

You’re hilarious.

Your thoughts must be drug induced.

 

Hey mate

I hope you're keeping well

I saw this post and thought, you know what, he's onto something here.

Keep up the good work

Mate

 

That's a bad example. The fact that they allowed that fight to take place tells you they were willing to let him get away with his bad behaviour. HBO had the right to refuse voluntary title defenses after all. In fact most of the mismatches Jones fought on HBO were voluntary defenses

Both camps can't be right. Either Jones was trying to make the best fights or he wasn't.

Look at the excuses he used to avoid better opponents:

Nunn: not getting paid enough/doesn't deserve a purse/pushed into a elimination bout
Graciano: Did not attend a press conference
Holyfield: turned it down and then lied about it
Jirov: not getting paid enough
Guthrie: does not deserve a purse
Tua: I've got to fight Tarver
Byrd: He should of lost the Oquendo fight
Hill: I can't fight him unless I am allowed to fight 2 opponents on the same night
Brewer: not good enough

Jones's actions speak for themselves

It was Seth Abraham who gave him those extensions. The same Seth Abrham who said it was a mistake.

The word of Seth Abraham trumps Lampley.

Collins was also one of the fighters who Jones reportedly offered 7 figures to. When asked about it Collins said he was made no such offer. And when he confronted Jones about it Jones changed his story and put all of the blame on Frank W. So even Jones isn't prepared to stand by his offers

Liles said it was only 15-85 in Jones favour, which would not have been 7 figures
Freddie Roach said Jones refused to make the fight

So how has no one from Liles camp refuted Jones version of events?

So you are just going to ignore anyone you don't like?

And when did Jones make Liles this offer? It wasn't in June when Liles and O'Halloran parted ways. In fact it was in July 96 that Jones stated he was trying to make as fight with Liles.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/box996x.htm

O'Halloran wasnt there. He is rewriting history
Abraham publicy stated that it was Jones who stopped the fight from happening at smw
Look at all of the opponents Jones could have fought from 95-96:

R. Johnson, John David Jackson,. Keith Holmes
Nunn, Rochigiani, Littles, Collins, Brewer, Liles, Benn
Hill, Guthrie

How do you miss all of these guys unless you are doing it on purpose?

Yes, he did. From July 11 1996. How many times do I have to post the link?

Because Jones said it that makes it true?

Even if that is true thats 4 fights in 8 years, which really should tell you all you need to know

 

Pretty sure Frazier was WBC mandatory

 

When did he supposedly turn Holyfield down? Because Holyfield is on record as stating he turned it down in 2003 because he didn't want to be made to look foolish in the ring.

I tend to doubt the rest of your claims on the basis of the Holyfield claim.

Also if HBO are offering a flat fee regardless of opponent, Jones is obviously going to push for the opponent who'll take the lowest purse.

 

Graciano Rocchigiani was the interim champion. And according to the WBC rules interim champion trumps the no1 ranked fighter, which is why Graciano took the wbc to court for failing to enforce their own rules.

 

I find that hard to believe, especially when Evander wanted to fight Jones immediately after the Jones-Ruiz fight.

Anyway Jones was offered the fight 2 weeks after he turned down the Buster Douglas fight. The whole thing is covered in the book by Holyfield's attorney Jim Thomas - The Holyfield Way

He went to Holyfield house and asked for a fight. Holyfield initially turned him down and then later relented stating that Jones had to fight a ranked hw first and then he would give Jones a fight. The book in up online on Googlebooks

That's not how it works. When you get a HBO contract HBO agrees to pay you a fee for a certain number of fights. For the first 2 terms of Jones contract it was 3m and they wanted the best opponents in return for that.

 

Oh okay, I've seen the interview by Holyfield saying he didn't want it in 2003. I can believe Jones turned it down in 1997. Because he was going up then but had second thoughts. I've been looking everywhere online for that interview but can't find it. Tyson-Jones Jr very nearly happened, anyway the best I found is this Murad Muhammed interview which gives a ton of insight into the negotiations, we would of got Jones-Tyson if Tyson filled a Chapter 11 bankruptcy instead of a Chapter 7:


PC: You were handling Roy Jones when he captured the heavyweight title. I understand at one point he was very serious about fighting Lewis, Holyfield or Tyson. How close where those fights to being a reality?

MM: When he won the heavyweight championship of the world, he was the king of the mountain. Once we won the heavyweight title, he was the man. It was the ultimate goal. He told me, "Let's go get Lennox Lewis." Lennox Lewis accepted $25 million to fight Roy Jones Jr., but he had one obstacle in front of him and that was HBO had to put him in there against Klitschko. Keep in mind, Klitschko was supposed to fight the kid from Canada [Kirk Johnson]. The kid from Canada pulled out, so HBO was stuck with egg on their face and they needed someone to fulfill that position. Well, Lennox Lewis said, "No man, I'm not going to fight him for that kind of money when next year, ya'll are going to have to pay me a great deal of money. I'll fight him next year." But when I put $25 million on the table, he said, "Let's fight Klitschko now!" Now HBO should have sent me a letter or a check or anything else because I saved them. And Lennox Lewis went in there and he won the fight, but he was embarrassed at how he won the fight. He didn't do as good as he wanted to do, so he retired. So that fight went out of the window.

Then we went and got Evander Holyfield. We offered Evander Holyfield $9 million. His lawyer at the time said that Don King owed him $2 million and they argued over why Don King should pay him $2 million. He [Don King] allowed me to offer him $9 million because he didn't have to. I said, "Well, Don is right. He don't have to let me give you $9 million when he's got an exclusive contract. You can't charge the man $2 million when he's allowing you to make $9 million, which you can not make without me." The lawyer thought Don should pay $2 million [on top of the $9 million offer], so I went up to $10 million. I said, "Look, here is $10 million. Let Don go for the million and this fight is on." He said, "Nah, Holyfield won't do that!" I said, "That don't make any sense." So Don goes out and calls Holyfield everything you can think of. He said, "I tell you what! I will go back and present this to Holyfield." So I saw him [Holyfield's lawyer] in the bathroom and I said, "First of all counselor, I appreciate that you are negotiating in good faith, because one thing about African Americans, for some reason, a Caucasian don't have their welfare in mind. HBO needs this fight. Who says he's not going to win? It's up to the will of God whether he wins this fight or not. He beats Roy Jones Jr. and not only does he make $10 million, but he makes another $25 million for a rematch. So that's a great deal of money, especially if you telling me that Holyfield needs the money. However, don't go back and tell your boxer [Holyfield] everything that Don King said because if you do that, I know us as a people. Holyfield's going to tell everybody to go to Hell." Well, because I later promoted Holyfield, he told me that's just what happened. The lawyer never told him that there was $10 million on the table; he just said that Don called him all kinds of names, so he [Holyfield] said, "The hell with Don King." He went on and fought the next fight and lost, so things happen when you leave your welfare in the hands of mercenaries. So we lost Holyfield.

Then one day, just before Thanksgiving, Roy said, "Let's go get Mike Tyson." I said, "You sure?" He said, "Yes. I want Mike! I can beat Mike Tyson. Let's go get Mike Tyson." So I called Mike and Mike met me in New Jersey at 1 o'clock in the morning. I flew all the way in from Florida to see Mike. I offered Mike $25 million to fight Roy Jones Jr. He accepted it. He called Roy on the phone and told Roy Jones Jr. that he's willing to fight, let's do this, but he asked Roy for one thing. He said, "If I lose the fight, you give me a rematch. If we do 3 fights man, I guarantee we'll never have to work again in this sport." He told him, "Roy, I'm gonna dog you. Don't take it personal. I'm not crazy. I'm going to dog you because it's going to sell a lot of tickets. I love you today and I will love you when it's over with. The fight is on." Some kind of way, Mike Tyson needed to get out of the deal that he was in. He said he wanted to file bankruptcy. I said, "Mike, if you're going to file bankruptcy, you should file Chapter 7." He said, "No because I'm going to lose my automobiles." He was worried about automobiles. I said, "Listen, you file Chapter 7, the kind of money you're getting ready to make, you can buy any kind of automobile you want out there." Someone convinced him to file Chapter 11, where all of his money had to go into an escrow account and be governed by Shelly Finkel; they were going to hold it right there. That's what ruined the fight.

PC: So Roy had all 3 giants lined up?

MM: Roy had all 3 lined up, so he got kind of discouraged and he told me he wanted to go back down and fight for the light heavyweight title. I said, "Champ, do not do that," and we will leave it there.

PC: With Roy Jones fighting on and choosing not to hang them up, you know Roy very well, do you give him a chance against Bernard Hopkins on April 3?

MM: Roy is not going to walk away. He's gotta prove it to himself that it's over. I believe Roy Jones Jr. believes that he can win and it wouldn't shock me if he did. The problem in this fight is Bernard, I believe, did not want to fight Roy, fearful that he was going to lose to Roy. When he saw that Roy got knocked out in the 1st round, then he mustered up the guts to say, "Okay, let's fight!" That bothers me because I was there for the negotiations when he [Hopkins] was offered $10 million and they could have made $20 to $30 million when it was all said and done, but he would not take the fight. I put Roy on the phone with Bernard and Bernard said, "Okay, I will take the fight, but whose gonna pay Don King?" Roy and I said, "We're not going to pay Don King." I said, "Why would we pay your promoter?" He said, "Because he has a contract on me and I ain't paying him." I said, "Well, I don't know what you're going to do. Man, you don't want to fight. You're just whistling Dixie man. You're either going to fight or you're not going to fight. You signed a contract with Don King, so you gotta pay Don King." He goes, "Well I'm not paying Don King." So he blew that fight. We tried to put a fight on with Bernard Hopkins two or three times and it did not happen. I believe, and this is my humble opinion, that Bernard was fearful of Roy Jones Jr. He could not beat Roy Jones Jr. Now that Roy got knocked out, all of a sudden, Bernard is gung ho to fight Roy Jones Jr. An old trainer by the name of Cus D'Amato told me at my dinner table in Atlantic City, "The worst fighter to fight is an old pro that has one more fight left in him." This is when Mike Tyson was an amateur. Bill Cayton, Jim Jacobs, Cus D'Amato, Mike Tyson, along with the gentleman that took over Big Fights; my God he's going to shoot me…I can't remember his name, but he acts just like Jim Jacobs. He is one of the best young men that I ever knew in the business. That's when Cus D'Amato told me, "One of the worst fighters you can fight is an old veteran with one fight left in him." So my prediction is Roy has one more fight left in him and he beats Bernard. If it's time for him to retire, he will lose against Bernard. That's my humble opinion.

 

It kind of is how it works though. If the contracts is a set fee, it makes sense to find a boxer will take the smallest slice of the cake. The more marketable fighter you pick, the more you have to pay them and the less money you take home.

It was HBOs own fault for not making fights on a fight by fight basis. Really we needed Jones on PPV constantly after Toney. That's the only way you get the big bouts. The problem is if a fighter is from Europe they have little American exposure so a PPV is less viable.

There weren't many fighters who would be PPV sellers in the US at the time. That's why Jones was wanting to fight Trinidad and De La Hoya. Hopkins-Jones would of gone PPV but Hopkins contract was owned by Don King and Hopkins said 'I'll do the fight if you pay Don King his split out of your end' which they weren't willing to do. And what happened was Hopkins was turning down other big fights (Calzaghe also) because he was waiting for his Don King contract to be up.

 

We could go back and forth forever but... Roy's opposition just doesn't stack up against Floyd's in my opinion. I'd agree that a higher profile name doesn't always mean quality opposition but I'd lean towards it being the case more often than it is not.

Simply put, Floyd would've looked otherworldly too against much of the opposition Roy faced at LHW. There would've been a lot of repeats of Gatti/Floyd against the likes of Harmon, Hall, Kelly, Gonzales, Johnson... and the like. I don't think that's really even debatable either.

For reference, see Floyd vs Bruseles, Ndou, Gatti, etc.

 

general zod,

It’s not a bad example.

Ricky Frazier was a mandatory challenger.

To my knowledge, Roy only fought 10 voluntary defences on HBO.

They were:

Malinga
Sosa
Lucas
Griffin x 2
Hill
Grant
Telesco
Harmon
Gonzalez

Lou DiBella, Kerry Davis, Mark Taffet and Ross Greenberg, all supported him at various points of his career.

DiBella supported the pre-Brannon interview.

Davis said that he and Roy’s advisor did all that they could to try and negotiate to get Dariusz to go to the U.S. in 2001.

Taffet says that he and Roy’s advisor did all that they could to try and secure a Hopkins rematch in 2002. Taffet met him in person and tried to negotiate with him. Taffet says he was offered $6m and a comeback fight on the network, but Hopkins turned it down flat and demanded $10m or no fight. He wouldn’t even negotiate in order to try and reach a compromise.

You know that I think he deserves huge criticism for the way he disrespected Nunn.

Jirov would have been a tougher fight than Ruiz, but for a 3rd of the purse and less prestige.

What did he turn down with regards to Holyfield?

How about focusing on who he did fight.

Did he not fight better fighters than some of those guys?

Roy signed for HBO in 1992.

Abraham left in 2000.

Roy had 21 fights on the network during that time.

That’s a lot of fights to give someone.

After Abraham left, Roy fought on the network another 11 times.

Ross Greenberg gave him a new extension as soon as he replaced Abraham.

Roy fought 32 times on the network, across 16 years.

It didn’t trump DiBella’s and other members of the team.

What I meant, was that no one disputed it at the time.

It’s a fighters job and a managers/promoters job to watch the fights of any potential future opponents.

That interview was aired live on HBO.

There’s a huge difference between being offered $400,000 and $1m plus.

Liles and King etc, would obviously have been aware of that interview.

So I’m wondering why they never disputed it at the time.

No. I’m trying to piece things together. And I just noted that what Roach said regarding their amateur bouts was incorrect, and that DiBella says that Roy did try to unify the SMW division.

How do you know that he wasn’t there?

He says that after Liles had beaten Littles in their June, 1996 rematch, that they had a great fight lined up against Roy.

So that would tie in with Roy saying that they were negotiating in July, 1996.

And how do you know how long they’d been negotiating for?

Roy fought Bryant Brannon early in October, 1996.

So he must have signed for that fight sometime around August, 1996.

So the offers that were referred to in the live pre-fight interview, would have been made around August and earlier.

DiBella publicly stated otherwise.

I don’t know why you’ve listed all of the above names.


Reggie Johnson was at MW.

John David Jackson was at MW and had been knocked out by Jorge Castro in 1994.

Charles Brewer was at MW and was relatively unknown.

Keith Holmes was at MW.

Tim Littles had already been knocked out in 3 rounds by James Toney in 1994.

William Guthrie was at LHW and was relatively unknown.

Nunn had lost to Liles and Little in 1994.

Hill was at LHW.

Rochigianni had lost to Eubank and Maske, and he never left Germany.


How can you criticise Roy for not pursuing those guys?

He’d beaten Toney, he fought 2 mandatories and a few keep busy fights, and he then moved up to LHW to fight McCallum, Griffin and Hill.

You have posted me a link which contains just one sentence.

It says that Frank Warren was going to be his manager. But did that even happen?

Again, it was also backed up by Lou DiBella.

If it hadn’t have been true, you’d have to ask why Seth Abraham authorised it, and why he kept Roy on the network for a further 4 years before his departure.

I can understand a business trying to publicly protect their reputation, but again, Roy fought on that network for a further 12 years.

If you believed that a fighter wasn’t genuine and that he was harming your company and its reputation, you wouldn’t collectively air 32 of his bouts across a 16 year period.

It would never happen.

Like I said, I’ve not researched it for a while. But I’d also have to look at how much Roy was paid, and how his opponents purses compared to what they’d received in their other fights.


It’s good to have you back debating again.

 

I’ve read a few excerpts from ‘The Holyfield Way’

Like you’ve said, in 1998, Evander thought that he was in a no-win situation at the time. Yes, he told Roy he’d fight him if he did something at the weight beforehand. And obviously, Roy never did that. But that’s not evidence of him turning down a fight is it.

 

I’ve not heard Evander say that.

There’s some great information in the book that zod has referred to:

‘The Holyfield Way’

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...hUKEwi_u4XDh-LqAhUVUxUIHcAtCXgQ6AEwAXoECA4QAQ

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...hUKEwiu6fKYg-LqAhVDSBUIHdTDCXcQ6AEwEnoECAwQAQ