How much credit do you give fighters for beating an inexperienced fighter before they became great

There are obviously borderline career points where a (young fighter) is somewhere between good/inexperienced and prime/great.
In the process of "becoming" great.

 

Its inarguable that Jones had more experience at a higher level against a better pedigree of fighters than Hopkins. Anyone arguing otherwise is a Jones apologist. Hopkins having amateur experience in the prison system and regional competitions does not equate to Jones years of experience in national and international competitions including the Olympics. Jones had also fought and beaten much better competition in the pros than Hopkins. The Jones fight was basically Hopkins first time to the big dance. Most people had not even heard of Hopkins at that point and that win only looks significant in hindsight. Had Hopkins career ended there nobody would give that fight a second mention which is the entire point of the OP. Theres a reason why Jones spent the vast majority of his career hiding behind his HBO contract and experiencing the humiliating Roycott. The list of intriguing names Jones could/should have fought as only exceeded by his litany of excuses for why he didnt fight them. He and Mayweather are largely responsible for the sport becoming such a joke today where fighters avoid each other, revel in their "0" and refuse to either take chances or give the fans that pay their salaries their money's worth. Trying to give credit to Jones for beating a guy whose major accomplishments were literally years later is par for the course for Jones fans. He literally made his entire career on one fight, the Toney fight. After that he coasted. If you can somehow squint and pretend that Hopkins was this massive threat when Jones fought him you could offset some of that argument. Sorry, not gonna work.

 

Depends on the fighter we’ll both fighters really. I consider say Bob Bakers win over Chuvalo a solid win. One was coming up the other was washed up. So that’s a good win for Baker imo. Depends on the individuals amateur back ground too. If they had 200 amateur bouts are they really a novice?

 

This.

 

Surprised nobody has said Ray Leonard for beating a 22 year old Tommy Hearns, given the ill-feeling Leonard generates around here.

I personally think it was a sensational performance but, and I defend Ray a fair bit, I wouldn't argue the toss with anyone who said Ray beat a great fighter - but he didn't fight anything like the monster who went in against Duran.

 

I’ve never agreed with this. His prime lasted a pretty long time and spanned several weights. If you wanna say he peaked at Jr. Middle, fine. To act like he was a completely different fighter there compared to Welter is crazy to me, though. Do you think he was legitimately underdeveloped as a fighter or do you just think the weight cut weakened him?

 

JDS (Jones Derangement Syndrome) alert.

It was a title fight for Toneys vacant title between the number 1 and 2 contenders.

Toney had been the best at 160 but vacated. But Jones took care of him just a little over 1 year later.

Hopkins was not unknown to anyone who followed boxing closely.

He and Jones were both featured often on USAs Tuesday night fights.

Neither had beaten many significant names up to that point.

Jones best win up to that point at 160 lbs was probably Percy Harris.

Hopkins had beaten Dennis Milton and Harris.

It should be noted as well that Jones had only recently moved up from 154 lbs.

People were saying Jones had been fed soft opposition and a lot of people were surprised he so easily handled Hopkins.

 

Roy was more experienced and closer to prime, that’s true, but that’s pretty much negated by the fact that he was fighting with a hurt right hand. Still, Hopkins turning it into the most competitive fight of Roy’s career up to the first Griffin fight says something about the level he was already at, even with Roy’s injury. Hop didn’t have it on paper yet, but he was already a hard, crafty fighter.

 

Dont try to lecture me as if I didnt live through this time when you clearly dont know what you are talking about. Most of Hopkins televised fights to that point (he didnt have many at that point) were on BET, yes BET. Thats how low rent he was. He also wasnt just coming up from 154. And Milton was coming off a devastating one round KO loss to Julian Jackson, he was nowhere near contender quality and had never beaten anyone worth a **** unless think he actually beat Olajide. Talk about Jones derangement syndrome. You actually have to bend the fabric of reality to make your pathetic argument.

 

Jones was far more advanced than Hopkins when they met. Many didn't see Hopkins as the standout middleweight or a special talent until 8 years later when he pumped Trinidad. By contrast Jones was peeling off what most consider his best ever win just 1 1/2 years later. Hopkins lack of hype aside started to fire say end of 95 and kept improving. Jones was performing at an absurd level early. He was an extremely special talent. 12 months and 4 fights post Hopkins he was electric in his last ever 160 fight against poor Thomas Tate. How many middleweights would have beaten that Jones? Not bloody many at all.

It's a good win not a great one. We can't pretend he beat anything like peak Hopkins that's for sure. He certainly beat a Tony who had hit his straps well and truly. That is a great win.

 

I think there was some development to do. If only clinching when hurt. It's widely acknowledged, isn't it, that he just hadn't learnt how to buy time and get hold of his opponent when he was buzzed? He was 22 and in his first weight class. As you say, he went on to win other world titles across various weights. I think it's reasonable to assume that, awesome at the weight and age though he was, there was a bit of development to be had.

And yes, I do think he peaked at 154. I just can't see a younger Hearns doing that to Duran.

 

Just read again .. terrific post.

 

Somewhere I recently read (if it is true that he said it ) Hopkins gave Jones the ultimate compliment , saying he doesn't think anyone ever beats the prime Jones.

 

I'm not surprised that he would say that. Even at that stage Jones was phenomenal. He had otherworldly gifts.