Trying to make sense of Zale and Cerdan......

Nice informative thread @Jason Thomas dealing truth and facts.

 

This needs putting in perspective.
On his return from the War Zale took on 6 3rd raters as tune ups,he was perfectly entitled to do so after such a long layoff but lets look at their records.
Rossi 26-20-3
Hughes18-45-7
Claus 7-10-1
Boyd15-13-2
Gillo25-42-10
Giles20-17-3
Then he defended against the number 3 Ring contender Graziano by-passing Lamotta and Burley ,Ring rated above Rocky.
After successfully defending his crown he then had another 5 non-title matches against 3 rd raters their records are as follows.
Logan34-16-3
Wadsworth28-13-3
Charles 23-15-5
Timmons 8-12-2
Beckett 16-11-2
Next he defended against Graziano again and lost.
Two more run of the mill fights against 2 more 3rd raters
Turner0-0-0
Claus again now 12-13-1
Woods 39-8-0
He then regained the title from Graziano Losing it to Cerdan in the 1st defence of his second reign.
So his post war record is 18 fights only 2 against ranked contenders,Graziano 3 times of the other 14 only 8 had winning records. Those winning stats don't looks so impressive now do they?

 

What makes the NBA the ratings to use? Were they any more reliable than todays WBA?
Dec Ring ratings
1944
Burley 3
Graziano 0

Dec Ring
1945
Burley 2
Graziano 4

Dec Ring1946
Burley 2
Graziano 3

 

What makes the NBA the ratings to use? Were they any more reliable than todays WBA?
Dec Ring ratings
1944
Burley 3
Graziano 0

Dec Ring
1945
Burley 2
Graziano 4

Dec Ring1946
Burley 2
Graziano 3

Dec Ring
1942
Lamotta1
Graziano 0

Dec Ring
1943
Lamotta1
Graziano 0

Dec Ring 1944
Lamotta 2
Graziano3

Dec Ring
1945
Lamotta3
Graziano4

 

Theres a massive glaring problem with just looking at these ratings with no context: Despite being rated briefly at #1 Graziano had never fought or defeated any of the top middleweight contenders. NBA recognized this and tried to rectify it by ordering an elimination between he and LaMotta. Graziano refused. Abe Greene, president of the NBA, not speaking strictly of the Graziano ranking decried the postwar rankings saying that the top guys werent fighting each other which it difficult to rank fighters. Even so one wonders how Graziano could rocket past everyone to the #1 position with nothing more than a win over welterweight Marty Servo only to lose his ranking the instant he signed for a title fight, that right there, combined with some criticism in the press that while Graziano was being called the next Ketchel his standing at MW had been built on the backs of welterweights and his vaunted power evaporated when he faced even run of the mill 160 pounders.

 

Because those ratings dictated who got title shots and who got stripped, barred, banned, etc. they were the official ratings due to the voluntary participation of the vast majority of states and countries governing bodies were boxing was conducted.

 

I suppose it was a," money talks," situation.

 

When exactly did Greene recommend an elimination between Graziano and LaMotta? Up until August of 1946, the #2 contenders behind Graziano were Abrams and Burley, with LaMotta #3. Why wouldn't they take part in an elimination?

I found an article from October 30, 1946, after the Zale-Graziano match at Yankee Stadium, in which Abe Greene recommends an elimination series. It also covers the situation at the time, which was as follows

1-----Zale & Graziano scheduled for a rematch at Madison Square Garden on March 21.
2-----The New York Athletic Commission names LaMotta as the challenger to meet the Zale-Graziano winner.
3-----Cerdan and Abrams are scheduled to meet December 6.

Greene is quoted:

"To prevent wrapping up the title 'in closed corporation cellophane' for a year and a half, Greene proposed that the Cerdan-Abrams winner meet the winner of a bout between Burley and LaMotta for the right to a shot at the title."

As LaMotta apparently was penciled in for the next shot, presumably to be expected in the summer of 1947, Greene is actually saying that Burley, Cerdan, and Abrams should be on equal footing.

Whatever, LaMotta and Burley never fought this proposed elimination, but LaMotta's shot was put on hold when Graziano upset Zale.

This article also has this interesting information:

"Burley, who is managed by Lew Burston and Jersey Jones"

I know Jones had a column for decades in The Ring. Did he have such a column at this point? If so, how would that effect The Ring rating of Burley?

 

These are the official ratings, though. Like it or not 74 years later, Graziano was the number one contender.

This thread is about Zale, not Graziano, and my point is how can you criticize Zale for fighting his #1 contender. Both Graziano in 1946 and Cerdan in 1948 were the #1 ranked contenders.

 

You know I'm as big a Zale fan as you can get both in a out of the ring. Cerdan did look awsome in this fight but he basically had a stationary heavy bag in front of him. Zale had no reflexes left no timing and he stood very strait with almost locked knees.
I always like to go back and watch the clips with Soose. The quality is terrible and theres way too much holding but you see a very loose athletic Zale bending at the knees and waist smooth and quick. I know he lost to Soose but styles make fights. That version of Zale beats Cerdan in my book.

 

Jones was Dick Tiger's US representative.

 

In 1946 around the time Graziano ridiculously leapfrogged every top ten middleweight without having to defeat one. You illustrated a period that most encompassed 6 months whereby Graziano was somehow rated #1 without having to earn it. He mysteriously lost that #1 rating just as he signs to fight Zale without having lost during that period. You arent taking into account the context of the entire period of how the ratings were frozen during the war, the return of the champions and opening of the sport again at the championship level, and flux in play at the top of the rankings. Your point is just that Zale shouldnt be criticized for defending against his #1. Im not a slave to any rankings. Nobody argues that Graziano got his title shot not because of his popularity and the money he brought to the table but because of his "ranking". Thats an asinine argument. Nobody can argue with a straight face that Graziano either earned, was qualified for, or deserved his title shot over basically every other rated MW. He certainly didnt deserve two in a row much less the FOUR title shots he was given (he backed out of one) without ever having to defeat a legitimate top ten middleweight. Jackie Healey and Irving Cohen who were fronting for mobster Eddie Coco as Graziano's manager wanted NOTHING to do with LaMotta and frankly Graziano wanted nothing to do with LaMotta either. They werent going anywhere near any middleweight with a pulse hence Zale being shot and low hanging fruit and why he looked like **** against Cerdan. Yes he had a string of meaningless wins after the war in non title fights but those fights were against complete non-entities.

The practice in New York at the time under the mob was that if foreign fighters in particular but also out of towners wanted to "make it" in the States they had to submit to a New York manager. Lew Burston was the mobs front manager for decades for foreign fighters. I dont know for certain if Jersey Jones was connected, I dont see how he couldnt have been, but he was also a manager for these foreign fighters who came to the states and wanted to make it big. However your comment about Jones working for Ring is kind of the tip of the iceberg for the problem we are discussing and exactly what faced Greene and what he was complaining about at this time. The NYSAC was still a powerful governing body at this time. They wanted to maintain control over boxing. The premier venue for the sport was Madison Square Garden in New York. Nat Fleischer's office was in New York and his magazine basically operated as the defacto ratings for the NYSAC. This is why I have been against using Ring ratings as some higher standard. They werent. In addition to being beholden to the NY promoters Fleischer was also trying to sell magazines and spread their popularity. The NYSAC and NY promoters wielded immense power to be able to make matches because thats where the money for the most part and thats where fighters wanted to fight. Its why they called it the mecca. So Greene complaining that the ratings are skewed and difficult to make because certain fighters arent fighting each other is a veiled reference to the NY Promoters and NYSAC gaming the system for guys like Graziano etc. Fleischer often sat on the fence during this period when other guys like Dan Parker were going after this incestuous relationship between the mob and promoters and Fleischer wasnt immune to this. He was based there and frankly what benefited the NYSAC and NY Promoters/mob indirectly benefited him. And while NBA ratings were the "official" ratings they were still effected by the corruption of the mob and the decisions of the NYSAC because their ratings have to be based on fights and if those fights arent happening those ratings have to be more arbitrary, thats what Greene was complaining about and thats why Graziano was bumped back down ultimately. The situation with Cerdan was almost identical in that the NBA wanted him to fight an elimination which he refused and still got his title shot because he had the mob backing him. Remember, it was the mob that held up LaMotta's title shot and ultimately granted it for the Cerdan fight. Despite LaMotta paying a $50,000 bribe for that fight, giving up his purse, Cerdan made almost nothing from the LaMotta fight and it was Lew Burston who was found to have cashed the check for Cerdan's purse.

All of the above is why a discussion about Graziano is germane to why Zale looked so bad against Cerdan. His entire post WW2 reputation is a house of cards built on his series with the imminently unqualified and unproven Graziano. If you accept that Graziano was an overrated media creation that Zale struggled with then its easy to see why Zale looked awful against Cerdan.

 

Very interesting post.

 

Flawless.

 

Old Klompy always has all the background stuff!