Top 35 All Time reveal - Boxing Survey Series

Oh yeah? Well I say Pee Wee Herman > Pete Herman

Yes he’s unorthodox, but check out the hand speed, the balance, the footwork:

This content is protected

 

I’m assuming its his depth of resume? I don’t see why that matters so much. When he fought top opposition, he finished them in impressive fashion, too. The guys I named were very good fighters. As good as the guys Olivares faced? No. But he didn’t get smashed in his prime like Olivares did, either. And, like Olivares, he showed that he could still hang with the best when past his prime against Pintor.

He didn’t do it as often as some of the other guys, but when he did he proved himself just as conclusively. We’re not talking about Ricardo Lopez level opposition here.

 

Tbh it's not really a knock on Zarate at all.

In 1977 there was already an established list of ATG fighters.

The question is, did Zarate, at that time, do enough to over throw them?

Before 77 Zamora was cleverly the man in the division, and some publications had him P4P number 1.


Zarate beats him and loses 2 years later.

As I said, no knock on Zarate but has he beaten good enough opposition at this stage to overtake those who came before him? For me, no.

 

It’s not just about depth of opposition. Not for me. Otherwise Roy isn’t an ATG.

Does the fact that many of the guys with the super stacked wins resumes also have super stacked loss resumes not factor in for you?

 

Roy beat Hopkins and Toney. He was the best MW in the world, the best SMW in the world and the best LHW in the world. He was also a top 5 HW in the world. I'm not sure you'll find many peers in all 4 of those weight classes.

Losses matter on context, depending on where they were in a fighters career, what weight they were at, were they avenged and other potential factors.

For example my BW top 5 is:

Eder Jofre
Fighting Harada
George Dixon
Manuel Ortiz
Panama Al Brown

Jofre only has the Harada losses that night concern me.

Harada only has the Rose loss that might concern me.

Dixon only has the McGovern loss that might concern me.

Ortiz only has the Toweel loss that might concern me.

Brown only has the Petrone and Goldstein losses that might concern me.

Zarate, tbf only has the Pintor loss. But I think he only beat something like 4 ranked contenders in his time at BW. He also ruled the division for just 2 years.

As I said, I'm not against his position per se, I had him top 5 before I looked into it in more detail. But since then I have him outside the Top ten.

Eder Jofre
Fighting Harada
George Dixon
Manuel Ortiz
Panama Al Brown
Ruben Olivares
Lionel Rose
Pete Herman
Joe Lynch
Kid Williams

 

And just how in the hell does Rose outrank him? Great win to gain the title, followed by 3 defenses that were all disputed decisions before getting blown away in his 4th defense. Even one of his two non title fights during his brief reign against a complete nobody was disputed.

 

Well he beat Fighting Harada, one of the greatest BW fighters in history.

They had a similar amount of time as the best in the world.

Rose has better victories at the weight, and his only real loss at BW is to Ruben Olivares.

 

Jose Medel beat Harada, too.

Rose made 3 defenses, all disputed. Zarate made 10, all by knockout. The amount of time they were at the top means little. What they did in their time means a lot.

One might say Harada was his only real win.

 

There's just too much boxrecing going here tbh.

Medel caught Harada and scored a knockout, but he wasn't able to replicate it in the rematch. Rose beat Harada cleanly first time round, for the BW championship.

You say these decisions are disputed, have you seen the fights, do you dispute them?

10 defences of what? What is he defending, who is he defending it against? These things matter, imo.

What they do matters, you're right. Beating the best available opposition consistently over an 18 month period is much better, imo, than defending against guys who aren't top ten ranked, whilst sharing a division with someone else.

Look, ultimately, as I've said I'm not really against Zarate being top 5, I just don't have him there. But ultimately what you need to do is look into the resumes of the guys listed and make your own mind up. Unfortunately this means looking at how guys were ranked at the time, what the context of the victory is, etc.

But I'm not even against Zarates ranking. I just disagree.

 

I’ve seen all of the fights I mentioned except for the non title fight against Cruz. You’re talking to me about Boxrec’ing when it’s been established that our primary difference as posters is that I judge with my eyes and you judge with paper.

You’re right. We don’t have much left to discuss.

 

Thank you.

Enjoy your evening.

 

I had Rose tenth and Zarate ninth.

I have Zarate in my top 100 fighters of all time.

I think I rate him just right.

 

The Toweel loss should not be concerning. The footage shows Ortiz was already past it AND that he fought well.

My main issue with Ortiz (hence why he was only sixth) is that his era wasn’t all that. But he fought and beat everyone so that’s incredible

 

Probably the best thing I’ve ever written. That, McGovern and Kid Williams (the latter being my favourite)