Was Sonny Liston Cheated or a Cheater? (Ali-Liston II)

Walcott was not a good referee

I think it was a legitimate punch that knocked him down. I don't think the punch had enough power to actually stop him, but perhaps he didn't see the punch coming and was slightly off balance, and got knocked down.

I think he could have gotten up and continued before the count of 10. He just realised he was never going to be able to cleanly land on Ali.

Its hard to say if its legitimate but i am leaning towards it being legitimate.

 

To understand what happened in the second Ali fight I believe you have to get inside Listons mindset.

When he first got ranked high enough to become a challenger to Patterson’s title he kept talking to the press as well as his friends about how the heavyweight championship would fix ALL of his problems. Being Heavyweight champion would bring money, fame and the adoration he wanted. Sonny wanted to be the champ because he believed it would make him loved the world over as it did the previous champions.

After beating Patterson he returned home expecting the press and fans, a celebration of a new champion and when he stepped off the plane hardly anyone was there. No press, no fans just a few stragglers. People close to Liston say it bothered him deeply. Broke his heart.

So he set about defending his title and figured the people would come around. They didn’t. Horrible things were written in the press. Racist things aside, Larry Merchant once quipped “he shouldn’t be fought he should be hunted” and that in his welcome home parade they could use shredded arrest warrants as confetti.

He lost the first match against Clay by not taking Clay seriously but as the second approached he was a betting favorite again. With the Nation of Islam swirling around Ali, press who hated him and fans who disliked both Liston and Ali, Sonny figures out that he would never get the validation he deserved so he may as well get paid.

Liston, through a few of his underworld friends, bet on Ali to win. Liston just gave up. It wasn’t a “fix” so much as it was a “dive”

Liston and his wife had a nice house, cars and he faded away from the press as they began to hate Ali instead of him. There’s a picture somewhere of him reading a paper trashing Ali and he just smiled.

Sonny Liston: The champ nobody wanted

 

I thought the fight should have been allowed to continue. But I don’t think the result would be any different. He was defeated before walking in wether it be intentional or mental

 

The fight was clearly a fix, even if Ali legitimately dropped Liston with a punch it wouldn’t effect him as much as it did, Liston took shots from prime Williams but one arm punch from Ali is gonna make him do some ridiculous stumbling that looks more like bad acting? Liston was also heavily involved with the mob and was in other fixed fights as well. People also like to say that Liston was very broken down mentally as if that causes first round knock outs, Liston was an experienced fighter and knew that it takes time for those openings and counters to come, I doubt he gave up hope after half a round. Also had an unusually early stoppage for a fight of that magnitude in a time where late stoppages were common. The fight was fixed, just my opinion

 

I agree the fix was in, but it wasn't the MOB, it was the Nation of Islam. Supposedly the Nation of Islam made multiple threats to Liston and Liston's family. Sonny was dealing with a force he (actually pretty much all of us) knew little to nothing about, which frighten him for his and his family's well being. One has to remember that Ali was the Nation of Islam's bell cow. Their path to publicity and expansion. They were not going to the chance of Ali losing tarnish their plans.

 

Could be, I wouldn’t argue with that theory, but I always assumed it was the mob since liston was known to brag about getting a percentage of Ali’s earnings whenever he had a fight, if it was true I don’t think the Nation of Islam would willingly give Liston Ali’s money, I think it was the mob giving Liston the money and they killed him because they didn’t want to keep paying him

 

Liston took a dive.
Probably he and some friends bet a lot of dollars on the Ali win, with a few large on a 1st round KO.
Liston liked to gamble.

 

The problem with the NOI theory is that Ali was involved with them even before the first fight. And Liston did try to win the first fight. Remember Liston's corner tried to blind Ali in the first fight and almost got away with it.

So why didn't NOI threaten Liston before the first fight? Liston's corner were clearly willing to use dubious and unethical tactics to hurt Ali in their first fight.

I think Sonny realised he did not have the speed to deal with his lighting footed opponent.

 

When Ali went back to his corner...he yelled,"He laid down!" The whole thing was a farce!!! In the 2 biggest fights of Liston's career....Sonny "S**t The Bed" in both of them! Read the book,:"Sonny Liston-The Real Story Behind the Ali-Liston"Fights". The body guards...the FBI...the Muslims up in Maine!!!

 

I tend to believe the former police officer who told me he had arrested Sonny Liston in my hometown in 1969 for Assault With A Deadly Weapon, in the near fatal beating of two men who tried to jump him, after Sonny had won a game of poker with them. Sonny admitted to my co worker that he took a dive in the first fight with Muhammad Ali in 1964. Liston then recalled that he was supposed to win bigger stakes in the rematch in 1965, but Sonny was terrified of the Muslims, who were sitting at ringside to ensure that no illegal activity would take place. Sonny would be released as the two victims all of a sudden refused to press charges. I have heard that Liston would tell anyone that would listen of the past events. I really believe that this led to his demise. I have posted this story on Sonny Liston before of the police officer that arrested Sonny.

 

Liston has a history of not always going with the plan, heard he was supposed to lose against Wepner, but instead loaded up his gloves and beat wepner to a bloody pulp. Maybe he did try to cheat Ali and got some sense knocked into him that he was supposed to lose

 

but Liston's corner was in on trying to blind Ali in the first fight. Your theory, while interesting, is too far fetched for me. IMO Liston tried hard to win the first fight but Ali was too quick for him. Ali is a bad stylistic match up for Liston.

 

Looked to me Liston got caught by a shot he didn't see coming, took his time getting up because the count wasn't started, and was ready to fight more when the fight was stopped.

I really doubt Sonny could have won that second fight, but it's quite possible he would have done markedly better than he did in the first.

 

The former Police Officer who told me he had arrested Sonny Liston in my hometown was with the Dept for 27 years, was a watch commander. He told me that it was hard to handcuff Sonny after the arrest, his fist were 14 inches. He told me that Liston was identified by a police radio transmitted check. Liston relayed also that he was terrified of the Muslims. Sonny spoke to Pete about the two Patterson fights, how he resented the fact that President Kennedy was against Floyd Patterson fighting him, and that the President told Floyd, You Better Win. The area where Liston was arrested was a rough neighborhood, I used to live in that area as a child.