GGG vs James Toney at 160.

Is Tiozzo included in those five losses?

I'd say without too much thought that Graham was no worse than Kalambay. Neither was Watson. So there's three more good wins & I'm not really sure how you can hold the Jones loss and third Toney loss against him. He was basically shot for both of those.

I would not. GGG may have beaten the best he's fought (and he didn't officially), but he didn't fight a roster remotely close to McCallum's. Mike amassed a much better résumé than Golovkin did, and was much better technically.

 

Sanderline Williams was also a much better fighter than his record suggests.

 

And that is the nub of the matter.

A teak tough guy, with some skill, beats a rather uninventive Golovkin, every day of the week.

 

Golovkin threw 700 punches at Canelo and only landed 200. He mostly used the jab as he knew throwing any other punch would leave wide open to a counter.

Toney threw over 800 punches at MaCallum whereas GGG the 600&700 at Jacobs and Canelo , so whose outworking who?

Why should a guy who struggled to beat Jacobs and lost to Canelo when he fought aggressive , be favoured to walk through Toney? The data doesn't support a Golovkin victory

 

Can't agree about Alvarez, fella. At best it's arguable imo. The others aren't in Toneys class in terms of his sneaky punching, timing and accuracy combined with speed and offensive sophistication at his best. Arguably more raw power, though not a massive amount imo. I'm not always a big advocate of Toney either tbh, I've picked against him plenty on here and recognise that he had flaws and I get some of the criticisms you've levelled at him to a point. I've always thought that you heavily overrate Golovkin though and aren't particularly open to criticism of him, so I don't want a prolonged debate as I don't think it would be very productive. You are though an excellent poster otherwise and I often agree with plenty that you say and have respect for your opinion.

 

GGG is tailor made for a guy like James Toney. It also doesn't help that Toney has a granite chin to go with his defensive skills. He would be even more gun-shy with Toney compared to Canelo.

 

Couple things. James Toney in his 24th fight was in his 2nd year as a pro, with no AM background. Took GGG nearly 400 am fights and 6 years pro to get a "title" shot against a paper titlist. James Ko'ed the number 3 pound for pound fighter in the game in his hometown to get his. Toney turned pro late in 88, fought once a month until 1991 when he Ko's Nunn with a 25-0-1 record.

What you call "Padding" is not just almost universal in terms of fighters. Especially when they didn't come through the ams. James had to learn as a professional. Any decent manager is going to take the time to season their fighter. Just like GGG did. The first 20 or so of his pro record are equally trash. Doesn't matter any because we weren't comparing GGG from the Proska fight to Toney of the Sanderline Williams fight.

Toney of the McCallum fight eats any GGG alive with his hand speed and defense. Anybody who thinks this fight ends via stoppage is off the rails.

 

I can’t envisage GG dropping James but I respect your opinion.

How was Mike well past it?

He’d recently beaten Kalambay and Watson.

You can clearly see in his fights with James that he was still an elite fighter.

Their first fight is widely regarded as one of the great MW fights with 2 fine technicians. It’s a great display of skill.

You can say he was past his peak, but he wasn’t in any way well past it.

James would have had to have been very switched on against GG. He’d have needed to have respected him. And there’s a chance that he may not have done. But if this hypothetical match up is prime for prime, where both fighters would have fought to their full capabilities, then I would have to have made James a significant favourite.

 

Great point. We are comparing an old fighter starting late (Golovkin) to a younger fighter in Toney. The version of Golovkin that people are comparing to Toney is ANCIENT in boxing terms. Golovkin is visibly much slower nowadays than when he started, and even then he only really managed to get traction when he came to the USA at age 30. For some perspective Hagler was shot and his career done for at age 32.

Sure. But then people mustn't say Golovkin's resume is soft compared to Toney's (at 160, which is where we are comparing them) because James' padding is much softer and mushier than Golovkin's.

^ Opinion.

 

A few points:

Toney deserves huge credit for slowing down Nunn with great body work. Nunn didn’t just run out of stamina.

Nunn did cause trouble with his jab, but it was a southpaw jab, from a guy with fast hands and a 77” reach. So Nunn finding success against Toney with his jab, isn’t evidence that GG would also have troubled him in the same way, just on the grounds that he has a great jab himself. Because they’re obviously completely different stylistic match ups. GG has a small 70” reach from an orthodox stance, and he hasn’t got fast hand speed and is much easier to hit than what Nunn was.

Yes, Reggie was good. A very tricky southpaw. How many world class southpaws has GG fought? Monroe. A good fighter but not as good as the guys who Toney fought.

The fights against Barkley and Roy were both at SMW, and what chance would GG have had against a prime 168 pound version of Roy?

People are favouring Toney here because he fought and beat better fighters, and he had more overall ability than GG.

GG has the title defences that Toney didn’t possess, but he fought far less against lesser opponents.

If you judge GG in the same negative way that you’ve judged Toney, you’re not left with a lot. He had wins over B and C level fighters before beating a WW and then struggling against Jacobs and Canelo. Although you can note that GG was past his best in those fights, it seems crystal clear to me that fights against Jacobs and Canelo would always have been tough and close where they’ve had played out in a similar manner.

 

Toney's top 3 wins are historically FAR superior. Golovkin never stopped an elite, James did. James went weight jumping for another decade and still has a resume comparable at MW with a guy who spent his career there and found his ceiling there. Which is no knock on him. But James didn't.

No **** it's opinion. Did Toney and Golovkin fight? No.

That's why we are discussing our opinion on who wins.

 

Mike wasn’t just good.

He was a great fighter.

GG never fought the calibre of guys that Mike did.

 

He wasn’t blown away by the best fighters he fought, but then he didn’t fight guys who were as good as the guys who James fought.

 

I am not sure what your issue is.My best guess is that you are just seeking attention.Because in case you really believe what you are writing, it is even worse because then you just do not know anything about boxing. Toney has a better record than GG end of story.It is not even debatable.You keep playing that same game of downplaying a fighter’s resume, which can be done for any fighter.Pages of pages of senseless debates and unreasonable suggestions.Just a waste time with you.You did the same thing when arguing Vitali had a bette record than Holyfield .Look at Toney’s wins and then look at GGG best wins, you have your answer.

 

I think Toney busts up GGG very, very badly. Tko 10 or 11