GGG vs James Toney at 160.

James admits himself that he lost to Tiberi. And I like it when fighters are honest like that. That has to be applauded.

I wouldn’t say that he was vulnerable, more inconsistent and at times unmotivated.

Comparing their records and ages doesn’t mean anything, as James had far more fights, and against prime, elite opposition.

 

If this thread was about the corresponding Middleweight ledgers of the two boxers in question then some of the above might be relevant, but it isn't. I'm not sure what the comparison between respective timelines, as they relate to Toney's and Golovkin's individual number of defeats, by a certain age, is supposed to tell us. The "losses" you mention do not pertain to Toney's time at Middleweight, anyway and, moreover, Toney had had twice Golovkin's career by that same age.

In any event, it's academic. None of what you have posted changes the fact that Toney has wins over Nunn, McCallum and Johnson. You may think of these wins as inferior demonstrations of Toney's abilities than what Golovkin has shown us, but that's a hard case to make, in my opinion.

Golovkin really fought nothing of consequence for the majority of his career and, when he stepped up, was made to look quite ordinary. He is 1-1-1 against genuinely world class opposition.

So another paper-based case ensues and this one is even less convincing than the first.

Relying solely on punch stats is a fairly weak position, at the best of times, but here you are using the count for 'punches landed' to imply Toney was lazy. That just doesn't make sense.

Even if you want to pin your hopes on the accuracy of punch stats, Toney has a recorded 919 'punches thrown' against Tiberi and 714 'punches thrown' against McCallum (II). These are not numbers indicative of a boxer who was 'coasting'.

So, not only are you using poor evidence to begin with, but you're also providing a poor analysis of the poor evidence.

The Jones Jr bout is a much debated anomaly. Why think it a useful measure for the point you're trying to make when the fight took place at 168; Toney was known to have had weight issues coming into that bout; Golovkin isn't anywhere near the quality and style of fighter Jones Jr is?



As an aside, I watched the Toney/McCallum II bout again the other day. It is not as enthralling as their first encounter, but intriguing all the same and the quality of the bout is quite palpable.

When compared to Golovkin's bouts at a genuinely world class level, even the lesser of the first two Toney/McCallum bouts puts Golovkin's outings in the shade.

I state that as a fan of boxing, rather than being a particular fan of any of the boxers under discussion. Like a lot of good fighters - especially aggressive pressure fighters, seeking to get the job done - Golovkin shone against the mediocre, but the sheen appeared to be dimmed somewhat, when up against anything half-way competitive.

 

You pipped me to the post there, Loudon.

I agree with Toney's poor performances being more down to motivation and inconsistency than them showing him to be vulnerable. Although, I'm interested in the implication that the latter characterization carried some sort of consensus 'perception', at the time.

The idea that Toney was vulnerable in the division he debuted and campaigned at successfully for four years doesn't seem to add up. Especially, given the level of opposition, against which he earned a few of his victories.

Maybe there was an opinion piece here and there that hinted at something like 'vulnerability' when Toney started to fluctuate in performance, but I honestly can't recall them.

 

Toney being a low output fighter, the numbers simply do not support that. Getting out thrown by 100 punches over a 12 round fight isnt that much at all. Also where did they idea of toney being unequipped to handle pressure come from?

 

Great posts by you on this thread.

I’ve enjoyed reading all of them.

You’ll have to put the question to the other posters.

I can’t remember him being deemed vulnerable.

His problem was that he was the MW version of Riddick Bowe.

Below is an interesting piece regarding his youth, which was uploaded by general zod a long while ago:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi_zt75m4DsAhUcQkEAHXdACSAQFjAaegQICRAB&url=https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/james-toney-in-the-beginning.347911/&usg=AOvVaw2NiuQ0YqPthKSdOMwIP7cx

 

Thanks. I don't recall having seen that piece before. It's both enlightening and harrowing.

I've never been the biggest fan of Toney, but it's difficult to argue against what the guy was capable of in the boxing ring - His food allergies notwithstanding.

I do think that, on balance of his overall career, he can sometimes be a little overrated, on forums. But, he's put on some great performances, which can't be denied and so, head-to-head, he does tend to stack up quite highly and pose big questions against some of the very best, in my view.

 

McCallum is mostly know as a good opponent who lost vs the best he fought. No way was he better than GGG. Dream on.

Rightleft has some points. GGG's real problem is he's not from the UK or the USA, at least in the classic section. I can all but guarantee you he is a first time hall of fame enshrine.

 

I've seen this matchup polled elsewhere and the majority had Golovkin ahead of Toney. Some boards seem to have their favourites, and I think it's true to say that James has a genuine fanclub here.

 

Fact is GGG has 1 loss and 1 draw officially and they were both controversial, so that's answered.
I mean, when a judge calls the 1st bout 118-110 for Canelo, that's one of corruption, favoritism or sheer incompetence.

Regarding Toney vs GGG at middleweight, I think James has better wins than Golovkin has, but if Toney can draw with Sanderline Williams, draw with McCallum and struggle with Tiberi, though he got the official nod, then why couldn't GGG do as well as those or better? I don't understand people thinking that Toney just automatically breezes to a win. It's a tough bout.

I think Toney is greater than Golovkin over each man's career obviously, but this thread is about middleweight at 160. Golovkin was consistently good and Toney was more up and down imo.

GGG-Toney in their middleweight primes would be a closely contested bout imo, likely going the distance and with fair judging, it could have gone either way, again imo.



Have a good day!

 

It was evident you knew nothing about McCallum when Loudon roasted you about him a few pages back. You not only ducked his post but you also ducked the thread until it was safe to return ..lol.

Hall Of Famer McCallum holds wins over Ayub Kalyle , Donald Curry , Steve Collins , Julian Jackson , Michael Watson , Saubu Kalambay and a draw with James Toney.

Thats more impressive than Jacobs and a draw with Canelo. . McCallum at 40 took Roy Jones the distance at 175, the same Jones Jr who would trounce any version of Golovkin.
McCallum ranks higher on the ATG list than Golovkin so its you who can dream on.

 

The only really good name there is Curry. Like I said he lost to the best he fought. Five times. GGG should have zero losses if the judges were fair.

How many of those guys a that McCallum beat were actively rated top ten guys by Ring Magazine. I'm a tad busy right now, you tell me. The fact that McClllum was close with Toney, and lost to the best he 3-4 he fought shows me Toney's ceiling. Dave Tiberi say hello.

 

Feel free to list and compare GGG's best wins then.

 

Wrong.

 

I asked, How many of those guys a that McCallum beat were actively rated top ten guys by Ring Magazine? Can you answer that question? Get back to me when you do.

 

Yeah , you ask because you don't know anything about McCallum. That has already been established. . When Mike boke Watson apart , he produced a more impressive performance than Golovkin did against Jacobs.
Every top level guy GGG fought , he either struggled against or lost.. He never dominated like Mike did against Watson.

Curry never exposed Mike like Brook exposed GGG.. Brook exposed how GGG was wide open to counter from speed and uppercuts.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/0b2...ads/chorus_asset/file/11682395/CaneloGGG5.gif