GGG vs James Toney at 160.

Mendoza,

Thank you.

I always look forward to all of your posts here in the Classic.

Of course, sharing a difference of opinion is what makes the threads so interesting. But I am surprised by some of the things you’ve typed regarding this topic.

I don’t like where you’ve tried to rank GG as a better fighter than Mike and Toney based on his statistics.

Yes, it’s true that he lost most of the rounds against Nunn and Roy. But they were 2 great fighters who presented him with huge stylistic issues.

Nunn was a difficult opponent for anyone as he was a big southpaw with a big reach and fast hand speed. He beat guys like Kalambay who was a great boxer.

Roy was one of the fastest, most unorthodox fighters we’ve ever seen. And look at who else Roy easily beat.

Toney was still a great boxer despite dropping rounds to them. We can see that in his other fights, and especially the ones against Mike. (you need to see those fights)

GG has got a great jab. But he was much slower than guys like Nunn and Roy, with a small reach of 70”

A fight against GG would have played out completely differently to the ones against Nunn and Roy.

Regarding Tiberi, yes, he lost that fight. He’s admitted that himself. And everyone reading this thread would have put their house on GG to have beaten Tiberi. But again, that fight against Tiberi wasn’t even 2 months after his draw with Mike, and it was his 5th fight in a 9 month period. It was a flat performance against a B-C level guy after recently fighting a great fighter. Again, those kinds of fights have happened all throughout the history of the sport. I’m quite certain that Toney would comfortably have beaten Tiberi when at his best.

I’m a big fan of Billy Joe Saunders. He put in great performances against Andy Lee and David Lemieux, yet he should probably have lost to a European level fighter in Artur Akavov.

Now I truly believe that if he was fully fit, where he fought to his full capabilities, that he could beat Canelo. I honestly truly believe that. But if you went and watched the Akavov fight, you’d want me sectioned.

Okay, but you’re talking about 4 or 5 fights out of what?

He’s had about 90 fights.

James Toney had great skills. He was a great boxer who trained under the tutelage of Bill Miller.

Again, go and see the level of skill displayed in the fights against McCallum.

Styles make fights.

Reggie was a tricky southpaw.

With the exception of Roy, Reggie was a tough fight for every world class fighter he ever fought.

Williams lost to every top level fighter he fought, but he gave most of them a fight. When Toney fought him, Toney was fighting every 4 weeks at that stage.

They then rematched a few months afterwards which saw Toney win a comfortable decision.

He was past his peak, but he was still an elite, A level fighter. His performances of the time reflect that.

He’d just recently taken apart Michael Watson. And the following year saw Michael Watson beating a prime version of Chris Eubank up at SMW before the tragic ending in the final round.

He’d also just won his rematch with Sumbu Kalambay.

Again, I think that GG would definitely have beaten him easily on his best day. But then I think that Toney would have done so too.

No, I don’t rate Peter. But Toney was touching 40, where he’d fought 70 odd fights. And he had absolutely no business being at HW fighting huge guys like that. And the fact that he wasn’t bombed out against world class HW’s when years past his best was a testament to his great ability.

 

With all due respect, you can’t claim that GG and Canelo are better than Mike, when you haven’t even seen some of Mike’s best fights.

Again, GG is a completely different fighter to Michael Nunn.

You can’t even compare a fast, 6’1 athletic southpaw with a 77” reach with a guy like GG.

They are nothing alike.

A fast southpaw jab from a 77” reach is completely different to an orthodox jab from a 70” reach.

Different heights, different angles and different speeds etc.

They’re completely different.

Different fighters with different styles.

Kalambay beat Mike.

Nunn beat Kalambay

Toney beat Nunn, but Mike arguably beat Toney.

It’s why boxing’s so great.

 

Mendoza,

Again, fights like this have happened all throughout history.

Dave Tiberi was a low level fighter with no top level wins on his resume. He was then granted a world title shot where he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.

James Toney had just drawn with a great fighter in Mike McCallum. He then put his title on the line against a low level fighter just 7 weeks later.

One fighter was fighting for his life.

The other fighter was just going through the motions.

Are you British?

Are you a football fan?

In Britain, every now and again we have FA Cup shocks. Shocks where a low level team is able to eliminate a top level team consisting of world class players who cost millions of pounds.

 

You think that GG hit harder than Jirov?

 

Why GGG hit harder, was faster, had a better jab, and the better chin. Who did Jirov beat again? Odd you like him, your antipathy towards Eastern European fighters stands out here. Maybe you like him because he wasn't that good and is on Toney;s resume. GGG spared with heavies and got the better of them.

Points let for talk about.

McCallum was 35 and he said past it. Toney was in his mid 20's, in other words his prime, Toney drew and won by narrow margin. This to me suggests he's barley better than Mike who was on the slide. If Mike was a few years young, who would win then? My point, when a fighter is 35 and facing a man in his mid 20, both with ability, the guy 35 seldom if ever wins. Yet he almost did here.

We've already been over the embarrassing performance to Tiberi that shows Toney wasn't consistent.

Did Nunn deserve a re-match? I think so.

What about his other close calls vs others?

Upon reviewing Toney, he had a fan friendly career, but often had to come from behind or barley defeated quite a few top ten opponents. We are talking about his prime here .

 

Absolutely, Jirov was a volume puncher, GGG spared with Heavies and was one of the best three puncher all time at middle weight. Who did Jirov knock out again that was ranked? Do tell.

 

You can not whitewash the Tiberi fight. Toney was in his prime, and should have lost. How is that dishonest???!!! End of.

Ail had KO wins over Liston, Foreman and Frazier. His resume towers over Toney's. No need to bring him in this thread.

McCallum, like GGG was a puncher who likes to go to the body. He was PAST HIS PRIME at age 35 dude, and Toney drew and barely won the other match. What does that tell you, when Toney was in his prime in his mid 20's?

Your inability to accept facts, excessive whining that the results were not fair, and failure to acknowledge many things is your MO here. I left quite a few questions for you in thread #277.

 

Can people please stop saying that an old McCallum arguably beat Toney? Can that go away?

McCallum's best wins were (IMO, anyway) Watson & Kalambay. He beat Kalambay in 1991, the same year he drew wity Toney, and he beat Watson in 1990. His fight with Collins was an exceptional performance vs an elite fighter. Again, this was in 1990. And Mike would still look good all the way up until he was 37 when he beat Harding. If he was genuinely past it (and I think he clearly peaked in the 80s, at 154, but peak isn't the same as being prime), it wasn't stopping him from beating elite fighters at 160.

And I thought Toney won the first fight 116-112, and the second, 117-111.

 

Absolutely, in fact, I'd be staggered if you could find a fighter where there wasn't overlap.

 

Mike hadn't lost much, but probably just a bit at 35.

For me, Toney probably just edged the first fight (but a draw was a very acceptable outcome), but Mike won the second by a bit imo. Seen that one many, many times and just can't understand how it went to Toney. Yes, most rounds were close, but McCallum still looked better in the majority of them. Few clear ones for Toney imo. I think Mike adapted from the first fight (didn't let Toney have as much success with the right) and should have won the day, but...

 

As for Toney-GGG, I can go both ways. Could be like the fights with Canelo, where I overall agreed with the judges but not the general opinion.

 

Wow, I really disagree there. I watched that a few weeks ago for the first time in a couple years and had it 117-111 Toney. I thought both looked pretty lackadaisical, but Toney's defence was the main decider on a lot of those close rounds.

 

Loudon says:

Mendoza,


Thank you.

I always look forward to all of your posts here in the Classic.

Of course, sharing a difference of opinion is what makes the threads so interesting. But I am surprised by some of the things you’ve typed regarding this topic.

I don’t like where you’ve tried to rank GG as a better fighter than Mike and Toney based on his statistics.

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Yes, it’s true that he lost most of the rounds against Nunn and Roy. But they were 2 great fighters who presented him with huge stylistic issues.

>>> And GGG is also a great fighter. Toney had trouble with good jabbers. GGG has a great jab. Let them exchange, GGG hits way harder. Which pressure fighter of GGG's quality did Toney beat in his prime? I see none. In addition GGG has the better world rate in most fights.

Nunn was a difficult opponent for anyone as he was a big southpaw with a big reach and fast hand speed. He beat guys like Kalambay who was a great boxer.

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Roy was one of the fastest, most unorthodox fighters we’ve ever seen. And look at who else Roy easily beat.

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Toney was still a great boxer despite dropping rounds to them. We can see that in his other fights, and especially the ones against Mike. (you need to see those fights)

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GG has got a great jab. But he was much slower than guys like Nunn and Roy, with a small reach of 70”

>>>You need to see GGG in his prime, he was fast handed. Not as fat as Roy or Nunn that is true. Roy or Nunn didn't feature body punching like GGG did, nor did they hit as hard. As a pro no one has out jabbed GGG.

A fight against GG would have played out completely differently to the ones against Nunn and Roy.

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Regarding Tiberi, yes, he lost that fight. He’s admitted that himself. And everyone reading this thread would have put their house on GG to have beaten Tiberi. But again, that fight against Tiberi wasn’t even 2 months after his draw with Mike, and it was his 5th fight in a 9 month period. It was a flat performance against a B-C level guy after recently fighting a great fighter. Again, those kinds of fights have happened all throughout the history of the sport. I’m quite certain that Toney would comfortably have beaten Tiberi when at his best.

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I’m a big fan of Billy Joe Saunders. He put in great performances against Andy Lee and David Lemieux, yet he should probably have lost to a European level fighter in Artur Akavov.

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Okay, but you’re talking about 4 or 5 fights out of what?

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He’s had about 90 fights.

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James Toney had great skills. He was a great boxer who trained under the tutelage of Bill Miller.

Again, go and see the level of skill displayed in the fights against McCallum.

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Styles make fights.

Reggie was a tricky southpaw.

With the exception of Roy, Reggie was a tough fight for every world class fighter he ever fought.

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Williams lost to every top level fighter he fought, but he gave most of them a fight. When Toney fought him, Toney was fighting every 4 weeks at that stage.

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They then rematched a few months afterwards which saw Toney win a comfortable decision.

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