GGG vs James Toney at 160.

Mendoza,

I've already told you why. Like BCS8, you're just trying to debate on statistics without applying any context.

Yes, Toney lost more fights. But then he had more than twice as many throughout his career, where he campaigned in 5 weight classes, as opposed to just the one like GG has.

Yes, he's struggled more. Do you know why? Because he fought a busier schedule and he fought fighters who were much better than GG's opponents.

Just apply logic. As great as he is, GG has a small reach and is very hittable. He's also struggled with his best opponents, who were lesser fighters than the best fighters who Toney fought. He's never been as tested. He's hardly faced any world class southpaws. He's only fought in one division. He's never even seen a guy like Roy before. He's never seen technical LHW's or huge HW's etc.

To me, that just makes your statistics irrelevant. Although you're right in what you're saying, it just carries no weight. Because he's going to have better statistics if he fought less fights against lesser competition. The easier the opposition, the more dominance is shown.

He simply hasn't fought the guys who Toney fought. He fought Monroe, whereas Toney fought Johnson and Nunn. He's fought Canelo twice, whereas Toney fought Mike 3 times. He's fought Jacobs, whereas Toney fought a peak Roy Jones.

He does have a great jab. But he has a small reach, and he's hittable. Even if he'd have been able to have beaten Nunn and Johnson much easier than what Toney did, the jabs of those guys would always have caused Toney more issues.

GG is far more hittable than Toney. And does he not mark up?

No, Toney wasn't prone to cuts. How many did he sustain in a 90 fight career?

And Roy in his prime was levels above GG too.

It doesn't matter if Mike was 35. A 36 year old Floyd beat Canelo with ease. A 36 year old Hopkins beat Tito with ease. Yes, it's not that common, but it happens. Yes, a younger version could have beaten Toney. He was just a great fighter. But even if Toney had've officially lost to Mike, it still wouldn't change anything here. Overall, Mike is a better fighter than GG Jacobs and Canelo. GG had his hands full there. Yes, you can say that GG was past his prime for those fights. But IMHO, Jacobs and Canelo would always have given any version of GG tough fights.

You seem to want to hold it against Toney that he struggled with a 35 old fighter. Yet you have to take into account that that 35 year old fighter had recently broken down Michael Watson and beaten Sumbu Kalambay. Kalambay was a great fighter, and Watson had beaten Benn and was beating a prime Eubank at a higher weight before the tragic last round. Many people here would rank Watson higher than a guy like Jacobs, and everyone here would rank Kalambay higher.

I've seen him in his prime. He is a great body puncher. Yes, nobody has out jabbed him. But it just brings us back around to the fact that he hasn't faced the same level of competition and styles. Who's he fought with a 77' reach like Nunn etc?

Your arguments are so weak. They really are. Trying to use Toney's losses and struggles against him, despite the fact that GG hasn't fought guys of that calibre. Just because he struggled with Mike and a peak Roy Jones, it wouldn't mean that he'd have struggled with GG. Do you not understand that GG wasn't as good as what they were, and nor does he possess a style that would have been as problematic? Again, yes, GG is a great fighter in his own right. But he doesn't have an awkward style. He isn't a southpaw. He isn't super fast. He doesn't have a huge reach. He isn't unorthodox. He isn't a master technician with a great defence.

It's not an excuse. Fighters are human not machines. How many examples do you want where it's happened to other fighters? Again, imagine GG fighting someone low ranked just 7 weeks after Canelo? We don't know what would have happened. Toney had a hectic schedule. Even guys like Ali and SRR weren't punch perfect every fight. Toney had already fought more than what GG currently has at the age of just 26.

If you don't know why I've referenced Saunders, why are we even debating?

I used him as a perfect example. On his day, he has great ability. But he was very lucky not to have lost a fight to a European level fighter called Artur Akavov. Why? Because he just went through the motions. He wasn't motivated. It wasn't a big fight. He wasn't sharp and switched on. It wasn't the versions who'd fought John Ryder, Andy Lee or David Lemiuex.

Dave Tiberi didn't fight the versions of Toney who'd fought Reggie, Mike and Nunn.

Are you familiar with the career of Chris Eubank?

He beat Nigel Benn and Michael Watson. He gave is all against Joe Calzaghe and Carl Thompson right at the end of his career. Yet he struggled in laboured performances against Dan Schommer and Ray Close.

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You're focusing on a handful of fights out of a whole career.

His amateur fights don't mean anything. He hasn't fought even half the pro fights that Toney did. He hasn't fought at the weights that Toney has fought at. He hasn't fought the opposition that Toney has. He simply hasn't been tested in the way that Toney was.

In several matches, which you have specifically focused on, where you ignore context as well as everything else which doesn't fit your narrative.

The style which GG would have brought, would have been easier for Toney than many of the others that he was faced with throughout his career.

Yes, he was ready go. But he obviously didn't fight to his full capabilities. Because if that had been Toney at his absolute best, he'd never have been able to have beaten the fighters who he did throughout his career. That should be obvious.

Tiberi was outraged at the decision and retired.

 

Not every opinion is the same. I rate Emmanuel Steward's opinion higher than yours.

 

It was high light video partial to Toney. Need I say more?

 

Any Middleweight version of McCallum between circa ’88 - ’92 is leagues beyond Golovkin. Intensive study of Toney/McCallum 1 is unnecessary. Even a ‘past-it’ McCallum (the same McCallum, who went on, after Toney II, to win a Title at 175 and defend it twice, over the following three years) leaves Golovkin in the dust.

Toney/McCallum 1 was a contest of an exceptionally high standard. This is almost universally recognized, with the bout largely regarded as a classic.

Marvin Hagler, who knows a thing or two about Middleweight boxing, was in attendance providing commentary, alongside Joe Goosen, and he wasn’t known for dishing out a ton of compliments for the sake of appearances. However, he was impressed by both Toney’s & McCallum’s performances, making repeated references to their hand-speed, their conditioning, their technique and tactics, with praise. It was an “Excellent fight.”, Hagler said.

Joe Goosen summed it up nicely, when he said: “If only all fights could be like this.”


Golovkin is not really in the same league as Toney, McCallum, Johnson or Nunn - and there were others, in and around the Top-10 during that era, which would have either beaten or given Golovkin hell.

Golovkin has done well in filling a void and decisively wading through the fairly featureless Middleweight landscape of the previous decade, playing to his strengths (until some better quality opponents came along). However, had he been around in the late '80s, early '90s, it is hard to imagine that he would have ever become the pick of the networks.

 

GGG in his prime DID NOT fight famous old and declining old men like McCallum. McCallum was very good...in his prime, not at age 35. The difference between Mike looked vs Toney and Jackson, a 6 year difference is night and day! Can you admit this? Its like saying Berbick beat Ali and so and so never beat anyone as good.

I have the fight after 8 rounds scored.

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Two very reasonable questions. Can you produce them? I've asked three times.

Toney got blown out by Jones. I would say GGG would have done better. Toney lost to Tiberi! He was dead even with a 35 year old MCCullum, who is he was a few years younger would have taken this draw, and was behind vs Nunn until getting a dramatic come from behind KO. Do I need to dive in in that happened in the Jackson fight, I can.

GGG defeated Jacobs. He had the knockdown. There is no way Jacobs won 8 rounds, even with your score cards.

 

Such a post is dishonest at its best. No McCallum at age 35 is not leagues beyond Golovkin. Come on! With GGG"s power, he's a network magnet, Come on!

Yes, it was a good fight because McCallum who was older and slower, didn't have the ability to follow up when he landed his jab, which was often with a straight right or hook. Older, stiffer and slower, this allowed Toney to counter punch cleanly. So both guys had their moments.

GGG by the way follows up of his jab and hits harder than McCullum for sure. Toney's power does;t look good in this fight, not enough to really bother McCallum. GGG would land his jab just he same and in his prime was much quicker than the defensively open, older and slower McCallum. I doubt Toney would be as eager to mix it vs him, and I can point out in SEVERAL fights, he's has problems with good jabbers.

Since your a bit better of a poster than Blade, despite such a dishonest start to this post, perhaps you can answer the questions he can't or wont.

I have the fight after 8 rounds scored.

1 ) Where is your score card?

2 ) How many ring magazine ranked opponents ( who were actively ranked ) did Toney beat?

 

Mike was slightly past his best at that point. He was held in very high regard and a 5-2 favourtite to beat Toney. He only had 1 loss which he just avenged by beating Kalambay who is a better fighter than anybody in GGG winnin column.

The Nunn win was a classic come from behind KO. James just broke him down with body shiots and was taking over in the 2nd half of he fight. Nunn is better than anybody anybody in GGG winnin column.

As for the Mc Callum - Toney I fight, there was a general consensus at the time that Toney won that fight. My or your scorecard do not matter.But if your are interested, I scored that fight for Toney everytime I watched it. Last time, I had Toney up by 2 points. I think the commentators had Toney by a wider margin which is also fine in my opinion. A draw would be stretching it a little bit given the strong finish of Toney.

 

Nobody is saying that Jirov had a great resume.

That is a different argument altogether.

We're not talking about resume, we're talking about power.

Let's not pretend that GG has iced everything in his path with a ton of one punch knockouts.

I'm glad that he never fought guys like Floyd.

That would have put him in a no-win situation.

I do wish he'd fought better opposition though, as it would definitely have added more evidence for this debate.

 

Statistics.

He'll just quote numbers at you.

 

*just*

I meant to type:

He doesn't just wreck guys with one punch.

 

Look at all of the available evidence.

The likelihood of GG stopping Toney would have been miniscule.

 

When GGG was old, people just really don't understand the age concept on this forum.

 

Okay, we agree Jirov didn't beat or KO anyone decent. GGG could have tough better opposition if he wasn't so avoided.

Example, Halger had plenty of name welter's and kr middle moving up to fight him, so he has Duran, Heanrs, and Leonard, three much smaller men on his resume. You could say she same for Monzon, though his opponents aren't quite in Hagler's class, and many were really short, older or lacked power for the most part.

Mayweather, and Cotto had no interest at all fighting GGG, they would be knocked out. Martinez was a solid older champion, he did not want to fight GGG either. GGG brilliance lies in having more or as many consecutive title defenses than Hopkins, and beating a group of top ten rated opponents.

While Toney did beat better name opposition ( He also fought away more fluff for opponents ) , he struggled doing so, probably faced less top ten ranked opponents from 160-168, and lost to lesser men, not coming close the best he fought in Roy Jones. He also had PED issues, and perhaps a bit favorably judging


Reggie Johnson 159 lbs lost to James Toney 159 lbs by SD in round 12 of 12

• Date: 1991-06-29
• Location: Hilton Hotel, Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
• Referee: Richard Steele
• Judge: Mike Glienna 114-113
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• Judge: Ric Bays 113-114

• International Boxing Federation Middleweight Title (1st. defending of Toney)
  
• Weights: 159 lbs (each)

Comment(s):
- Toney was knocked down in the 2nd round.


^^^ Okay, Judge Morse Jarman's card to me looks like BS. 112-115 for Toney, who was knocked down? Did Toney win 10 round on this fight, legitimately? Anyone?

I continue to see Toney out classed by the best he fought, and struggle to victory vs the old, or good but not great types, meanwhile GGG was victimized by bad judging vs Canelo.

 

Roy iced Thomas Tate and was the only person to knock out Thulani Malinga.

He went on to score one punch knockouts over guys up at LHW.

Roy had huge power at MW. He just hasn't got the stats because he didn't always fight aggressively. But there’s no reason why he couldn't have knocked out the same opposition that GG did.

 

It's crazy. I've never seen a guy dig his heels in so much, before then going on to watch the fight for the FIRST time.