Harder puncher at 160 - Jones or GGG?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by JohnThomas1, Oct 7, 2020.


Who hit harder at 160?

  1. RJJ

  2. It's a wash/i have no stones.

  3. GGG

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Well lets see how credible your impressions of the Classic Section are. I can't wait to see how this pans out.
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Murray was rated 6th by Ring Magazine and 29-1-1 with the sole lose come to Martinez going into this fight.

    Murray vs Martinez was close, Murray floored him if you don't remember. Actually you can argue he floored him twice, and cut him. GGG was the lone man to stop Murray. That ups the value. Just an other example of GGG power and skills, beating a top ten contender. This adds to a resume, if you think it doesn't reply back and say why.
    • Location: Club Atlético Vélez Sarsfield, Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina
    • Referee: [url]Massimo Barrovecchio[/url]
    • Judge: [url]Alejandro Rochin[/url] 115-112
    • Judge: [url]Max DeLuca[/url] 115-112
    • Judge: [url]Nicolas Hidalgo[/url] 115-112
    For the third time in as many fights, 38-year-old Argentine Sergio Martinez came off the mat to retain his title as middleweight champion of the world.

    The champion moved with his hands low and outworked challenger Martin Murray over the first three rounds. Murray picked up his pace in the fourth and outlanded Martinez for the first time in the fight. Martinez was allowed time to recover from a low blow in the round. In Round 6, a cut opened to the outside of Martinez's left eye.

    The scored knockdown came in Round 8 when Murray connected with a straight right hand that caught Martinez flushly on the jaw as he was backpedaling and put him on his backside for a couple seconds. Martinez went to the mat again in Round 10 following a glancing punch, but it was ruled by the referee to be a slip.

    Through nine rounds, the fight was very close with many having it scored even. The champion, despite complaining of pain in his left hand, outworked Murray in the eleventh and twelfth to claim the win in front of his home crowd.
     
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    These four might also think Toney hits harder! They can clarify here. :) I would say three, Dino early counts for anything but entertainment. More of a hater than anything else.
     
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  4. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    So what?
     
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  5. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    Everybody can see what you’ve done.

    I have answered every single one of your questions.

    I can even give you the page numbers and post numbers if you wish.

    Every question you have asked has been answered honestly by me.

    Yet you have not shown me the same courtesy.

    So why should I spend my time answering your questions, if you’re too ignorant to answer mine?

    You don’t even want to debate.

    You don’t debate with anybody.

    You don’t know how to debate.


    I asked you if GG had a schedule like Toney’s, where he sometimes fought once per month, which saw him accumulate 46 fights by the time he fought Roy Jones at just 26 years of age. And that question was extremely relevant to our debate.

    Your answer: A load of waffle about GG’s amateur fights.


    I asked you if GG had been tested in the way that Toney had been, where he’d had many fights, where he’d encountered many different styles, where he’d fought better competition and where he’d fought at higher weights?

    Your answer: No. GG hadn’t been tested in his fights, as he didn’t struggle in his prime.


    I have asked you 5 times if GG fought anyone as good as Mike McCallum or Michael Nunn when he was in his prime?

    Your answer: Nothing. You have ducked it on numerous occasions.


    Now the reason why I’ve asked those specific questions, is again, because they’re all extremely relevant to the debate. Because all you have done all throughout the thread, is to just quote the following statements:

    “GG never struggled in his prime against lesser fighters”

    “GG never struggled in his his prime against any of his competition”

    Statements, with zero context.


    You also have an obsession with Dave Tiberi.

    I’ve already told you that Toney lost.

    I’ve already told you that Toney admits that he lost.

    But there’s nothing wrong with saying that Toney wasn’t at his absolute best for that fight.

    Now if you want to say that he was unprofessional etc, then that’s fine.

    If you want to say that he was in his prime when it happened, then that’s also fine.

    But don’t pretend that was Toney at his best, where he fought to his full capabilities. Because that is absolute nonsense and you know it is.

    Again, if that had been Toney at his absolute best, then he’d never have been good enough to have beaten Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Reggie Johnson, Tim Littles and Vassily Jirov etc.

    If a guy at his best couldn’t beat a C level fighter, then he wouldn’t have been good enough to have beaten A level fighters. That should be obvious to anyone. So again, you know yourself that Toney can’t have been at his best. Not unless you’re going to claim that Dave Tiberi was a better fighter than Nunn and McCallum etc.


    Finally, you have noted yourself that BJS schooled David Lemiuex, (who you rate very highly) yet he almost lost to a EUROPEAN LEVEL fighter in Artur Akavov, because he’d lost focus.

    You yourself have said that.

    So if BJS could lose focus against Akavov, then why couldn’t Toney have lost focus for Tiberi?


    Now go and answer my questions openly and honestly, and then I’ll come back and answer any of yours. Now if you don’t want to, then that’s fine. But then don’t quote me again. Because again, I’m not going to take the time out to answer your questions if you’re not going to do me the courtesy of answering mine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  6. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    Please.

    The actions of you and BCS8 have been cringeworthy.

    You 2 are the biggest fanboys on the forum.

    You’re up there with MVC.


    Look at your conduct over the last few weeks:

    You were so upset you literally had to make another thread to bash Toney in in order to make you feel better.

    BC8S compared the Toney-McCallum fight to the Ali-Berbick fight.
     
  7. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    He’s still yet to work out that the rankings depend on the strength of the divisions.

    Amateur hour.

    I love Martin Murray.

    I always willed him on.

    But in a stronger era, he wouldn’t have been ranked at number 6 by the Ring.

    If he’d have been dropped into the early 90’s mix, he literally wouldn’t have made the top 15.
     
  8. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Agreed.

    But, more to the point, is that Murray's ranking has nothing to with the fact that he failed to push the envelope against Martinez or, that Martinez was 38 and had been on the slide for at least a couple of years; suffering from a severe knee injury, which couldn't have helped.

    Martinez was there for the taking and Murray was unable to capitalize on the circumstances.
    It's no shame - but it is what happened.
     
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  9. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    I think you gave Murray too much credit. Guys around today like Liam Williams and John Ryder are way better than him... Marray wasn't even Howard Eastman level imo.

    Not only was Martinez pushing 40 , he also fought that fight with a bum knee and a broken hand. You could even attribute the knockdowns to the heavy rain and wet canvas.

    [url]http://en.espn.co.uk/boxing/sport/story/204909.html[/url]

    This content is protected


    Murray could not beat an old , injury riddled Martinez. But worst of all he needed to foul an old broken down Martinez to gain an advantage for himself. .

    This content is protected


    Cotto showed soon after just how far gone Martinez was.
     
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  10. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Vinnie Pazienza said Roy hit you with very fast punches not the hardest. He said the hardest he'd ever been hit was by Roberto Duran
     
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  11. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's Jones Jr. and frankly, it's not that close. Okay, it's close in a, if these two both hit a punch tester, they would be in the same ballpark. What makes it a clear separation for me, is Jones being able to hit people with Punches they never saw coming. His speed and angles is light years ahead of GGG. What do fighters say a lot after they got KO'd or when they get stunned, yeah, I didn't see that punch. The line "what you don't see coming and brace yourself or roll with, hurt you the most. So to me, in a functional boxing sense, who's going to dislocate someone from their senses with one shot quicker, easier and looking better doing so... The answer has to be RJJ
     
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  12. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I was a big critic of that fight (RJJ/Paz) ever being made - it was an utter mismatch.

    But, while I can appreciate the respect Paz wants to show Duran, nobody bounced Paz around the ring like Jones Jr did. Paz might as well have been a powerball that Roy was playing with, by the 6th.

    Paz's only other stoppages (all two of them) came about due to cuts, whereas Jones Jr was just knocking Paz over at will, in the end.
     
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  13. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    Because we disagree with you? Come now.
     
  14. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I can be very cordial and start out that way. If attacked, sometimes I put it back to them. Simple. You don't they to smear me, you always get a positive reply. If the mods want a cleaner board, I'm 100% for it!

    To be frank, your actions lately are of a high-level fan boy full of fluff and what if attempts to absolve the negative side of what happened to James Toney.

    BC8S is more than capable of speaking for himself. If you're talking to me, don't lump me to insulate that I agree with him all the time. I don't lump you in with the ridiculous statements or false informaion that Dino says. Fair enough?

    I took time out to score Toney vs, McCallum 1. It was very close, I Think McCallum edged it, and gave a full round by round with punch stats until round 11. To point McCallum was clearly past his best, and said so. He was 35, visibly slower with less engird compared to his fights in 1987, 1988, and 1989. Age does that. Toney was in his prime. Stock up McCallum. Stock down Toney. On McCallum, I think he was a solid top ten guy and fair alphabet champion. I also think he lost to the best 5 fighters he faced. IMO 2 of his 3 best wins were close spit decisions wins. Let's not build him up beyond that, okay.

    Now moving on I said I'd answer whatever questions you have if you answer mine in the Toney Vs GGG thread. Are we on? Lets keep it clean with honest replies.

    -M
     
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Given who Vinny was in there with, this is meaningful. If he wanted to excuse his blow out loss to Jones, he could have simply said Roy hit really hard. Instead he's saying Duran, who leafy does not hit as GGG hit harder than Jones. Solid information,