Muhammad Ali vs Alexander Povetkin

Ali was a much better combo puncher than Povetkin is.

 

-true Povetkin did have a good hook and Ali could get nailed by those

-show me a fight where Povetkin cuts the ring off on a mobile opponent

-Ali doesn't need to be the 1st, 2nd, or even 20th hardest puncher Povetkin faced since he isn't a boxer who relied on power to win. Ali could take rounds solely because of his mobility and being able to make opponents miss. The point in me bringing up Povetkin's power compared to Ali's opponents was to point out how silly the idea he'd be able to KO Ali is.

-no Povetkin is the least startling boxer I've seen in years. How can a boxer be "by the book" and fundamentally sound and conventional yet you claim they aren't predictable? Povetkin doesn't really "shift gears" he fights at a fairly straight forward pace. Dynamic and unpredictable are the last 2 adjectives id use to describe him.

-never said Povetkin had a glass jaw. Yes he was only stopped ince, but he was also dropped and tagged hard numerous times in other fights and wasn't very hard to hit or land flush on by boxers who aren't remotely as fast or as accurate as Ali.

-this is not true. Ali's jab was not just "flashy" he caused major swelling and snapped guy's heads back with it. He had many ways he'd use his jab: as a flicker to sting the opponent or set up combinations, an up jab to hit from an unusual angle, a stiff jab to stop a guy dead in his tracks, a blinding jab meant to distract, a whip like jab to quickly tag the opponent and score points while on his toes. The sheer number of oppoments who had black eyes, cuts, and puffyness in the exact spot where Ali's jab would land indicates there was some weight to it and he wasn't merely just being flashy. You can Google tbe photos. Nobody ever just walked through Ali's jabs.

-the possum move doesn't mean Ali stands there and let's an opponent hit him. He would exaggerate the damage to make them wonder if he's hurt badly but hiding it or he really wasn't bothered. Against Bob Foster he wasn't hurt at all and Bob paid for it trying to go for the KO anyway getting himself knocked out. Against Shavers he was badly hurt and Shavers hesitated since he had seen it work so often and he was worried about running out of stamina like what happened to Foreman and paid for it. It's very hard to get a read on Ali and he was a master of ring psychology. He was very good at tying up if things got bad and Wladmir showed what happens when a great clincher ties up Povetkin: he cant do much.

-correction: guys who had a good left hook, body attack, ability to cut off the ring, AND provide non stop pressure/volume gave Ali trouble. Povetkin did not always fight with volume and would sometimes operate more like a boxer puncher at mid range. Since Ali has the superior stamina and has beaten arguably the best heavyweight pressure fighter of all time, I don't see how Povetkin is going to win with that style. I maintain that he would either need frustrate Ali with his solid fundamentals and technique or he'd need a knockout to win. The heavy flabby flat footed Russian doesn't have the cardio to apply enough non stop pressure to Ali for 12 rounds no matter how many Peds he abuses. People keep bringing up Povetkin's weight forgetting that the trade off is that he will be slower and have worse stamina compared to some of Ali's opponents and Ali himself.

-I agree it would not be one sided, but the idea of Povetkin knocking out Ali outside of a punchers chance is comedy.

 

Also Wepner inadvertantly stepped on his foot for the knockdown.
Wepner went back ton his corner & said something like "back the car up, we are going to be rich".
His trainer said better turn around he is getting up & he looks mad.

 

Ali isn’t stopping him don’t know why that has so many votes.

 

Fonboyism If Ali wins, it's most likely on the cards.

 

Povetkin would be stopped the same way oscar bonevina was stopped and oscar was better

 

This discussion of power is a bit reductionist. Povetkin isn't even the most powerful puncher in his own time, but he consistently showed the ability to land fight ending shots on world class opponents. I don't think he has what it takes to stop Ali (very few fighters do) but he certainly has more than enough offensive ability to nail Ali and potentially seat him on his ass; at the very least make his legs dip.

I think you're selling Povetkin a bit short here. Yes, he's a very meat and potatoes fighter, but he also does a lot of subtle things well. Good use of angles to slip through opponents' guards, shift stepping, hiding his intentions of shots off the same hand. A lot of his knockouts came from his opponents failing to guard against a specific avenue of attack which he was able to sneak through (and in some cases had worked to open up). HIs doubling (and in some cases tripling) of his left hook is also a very potent move that's caught more than a few opponents out, as is his feint, dip, overhand right that has a very similar tell to his left hook but lands at a totally different angle.

Compare him to someone like Joseph Parker for instance and it becomes abundantly clear how much more nuanced and educated Povetkin's offense is. Parker's a very explosive guy who actually might punch just as hard as Povetkin but doesn't have anywhere near the stoppages because opponents can read him easily.

With Povetkin I can't think of a single fighters who's been able to have their way with him barring Wlad, and he cheated to do so.

 

Agreed. If Ali gets reckless he could certainly be dropped by Povetkin. Nothing unreasonable about that. I would actually say Povetkin is like a linebacker sized version of Henry Cooper.

I could see prime Ali making that mistake but ironically the Ali of the early to mid 70's who had rekindled hunger and more experience, wisdom, and a more filled out frame likely takes him serious from round 1 and attempts to neutralize his power. For instance, the Cooper and Frazier rematches or how he took Shavers seriously immediately.

Well there's only 2 problems with this.

-Ali rarely had his hands up in a traditional guard, so Povetkin's ability to find small gaps and slip shots through aren't going to be helpful. Against a guy with a more upright textbook European stance like Joe Bugner, Frank Bruno, or possibly even Sonny Liston this could be highly effective. Against boxers who often have both hands low and sway back to avoid shots such as Ali or Vitali he would have to approach things differently. Especially prime Ali who went out of his way to prove he could make his opponents miss with both arms dangling low at times.

-Ali literally already fought a boxer named Frazier who moved erratically and threw double or triple hooks. And he did this arguably better than anyone in The division's history. He didn't have Povetkin's fundamentals, overhand right, and likely didn't hit as hard as Povetkin shot for shot but if we're comparing that specific part of Povetkin's style I think this is a valid counter point. While Frazier was slightly shorter and less massive, he was also twice as aggressive and had faster hands than Povetkin. Frazier also had insane stamina and could fight on the inside at a high level. When I said Povetkin doesn't really do much that Ali hadn't already seen before I meant it.

And overhand right would serve better against a guy like Holmes or Lennox Lewis. Ali wasn't particularly vulnerable to it, and handled overhand rights of Norton and Shavers despite being past his best.

I do agree Ali would have to fight a very careful fight since he definitely was vulnerable to hooks and Povetkin like you said could mask his intentions and be cagey when he wanted to be. I think regardless of which version of Ali, it depends on if Povetkin could actually manage to cut the ring off (I'm still waiting for evidence of this), how he deals with Ali's annoying fast sharp and accurate jab, and how he deals with Ali's wrestling. Without finding a way around those 3 skills he has no chance whatsoever of winning a decision. Otherwise he will simply be following Ali around the ring all night, get his left eye swollen shut, and get exhausted being tied up whenever he does get close and behind on the cards. I don't think this is the most likely outcome, but it is a distinct possibility if he can't impose his will and stop Ali from finding his rhythm and taking control of the pace. Ali is the last boxer you want to get comfortable and confident.

 

Povetkin likes to just throw hooks with uppercuts and dredges forward in a formidable way.

He's predictable but he's good at what he does. It could easily be tougher than expected.

Ali would beat him with movement and just by jabbing his head off.

 

I never said Povetkin would knock out Ali and no povetkin has never cut the ring off of a high level mover because he’s never fought one, but I don’t think we should just assume he won’t be able to. These two have never faced anyone like each other so it’s a tough h2h match up. What we do know is Ali had problems with guys with good left hooks and who cut off the ring which are areas where povetkin does well, what we don’t know is how Povetkin performs against a high movement boxer. The knowledge that we have favors povetkin so I wouldn’t choose Ali

 

In the first sentence you admit that Povetkin never had to cut the ring off on an opponent who had good movement(which means we can’t possibly know whether he’d able to ör not), but in the very next sentence, you claim he’s good at cutting off the ring. How do you come to that conclusion, if you don’t mind my asking?

 

He seems to do it well in all of his fights, but he hasn’t fought anyone with the movement of Ali

 

Well yes Povetkin generally does well against most opponents.

But you just admitted he never fought or beat a high mobility fighter so why would we just give him the benefit of the doubt?

Yes neither fought someone exactly like the other but that's kind of a cop out since that applies to almost every h2h discussion. Ali faced a much wider variety of styles in a much more decorated career. If anything he'd be the one less out of his element. Like i said, I'm not sure what people see in Povetkin that they think is going to surprise Ali. He's a very fundamentally sound boxer/swarmer hybrid with good all around technique, but other than his hooks (which Ali has had to deal with more than anyone really) and sneaky left upper he doesn't really do anything that startling. Ali has beaten guys who were faster, guys who hit harder, guys who were bigger and more durable, guys that had better stamina or just as technically sound, etc. Wladmir is the closest to Ali that Povetkin fought and he really couldn't do much about the jab and grab strategy--which is one of Ali's favorites.

If an experienced Ali saw footage of Povetkin you think he'd just leave himself open like the Cooper fight?

 

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This thread is still going? I love Povetkins style, and he is definitely one of the better heavyweights of this era. I did pick him to beat Whyte, and I think the win shows that's he's been high quality for a long time. But just watching the his highlights, doesn't have much of a jab, hooks almost all his punches, no head movement, rare upper body movement, trouble with the jab against Wlad, AJJ, and Whyte, he's basically a sitting duck for Ali.

 

Can’t argue with that