Could Ali of beaten John L Sullivan in Bare Knuckle Boxing

A prime Muhammad Ali, 1964-1967 would have beaten the great John L. Sullivan the same way James J. Corbett did in their classic bout, using footwork, and speed against such a stationary opponent.as Sullivan. No Rope A Dope here as Ali would have a great advantage in the stamina department. Not to mention Ali's reflexes were catlike in his prime years, plus great timing. Sullivan quits late as those fights usually went past the 15 round limit. John L. did not like to train as the story goes but Ali would have to be very careful not to get caught, as Sullivan was no joke.

 

You are fundamentally wrong on three points here.

You are wrong about Sullivan's dimensions, but that is a complex argument.

What you also fail to grasp is that being the shorter/smaller man, can actually be an advantage in wrestling.

That aside, size counts for next to nothing in wrestling, if you don't know what you are doing!

 

Yours perhaps!

 

I honestly think that a prime Sullivan, would have made mincemeat out of Corbett!

 

You're living in a fantasy land. Sullivan was a weakling compared to Ali and there's no evidence he had any wrestling ability. His beer belly isn't an advantage here as much as you might like to imagine it might.

 

Sullivan was not that small a man to be honest, just look at his tale of the tape.

Wrestling moves were allowed in bare knuckle fights, so you would not even enter such a bout, unless you were proficient in them.

You say that there is no evidence that Sullivan had any wrestling ability, which is somewhat worrying.

You obviously don't know that Sullivan's trainer was a world wrestling champion, and that Sullivan split a series with him!

 

Except Ali was a very, very strong man, probably the single most overlooked aspect of his talents. And as someone who wrestled competitively in high school, being the smaller man more often does not help, especially when the other fellow is a beast.

I just see a guy too talented and too much man for Sullivan, and I rank Sullivan very highly.

 

Sullivan was trained by a world wrestling champion.

Being a very strong man, is not going to cut much ice against that, even if Sullivan had been a welterweight!

Then you have probably also concluded that Sullivan's power, was in the same general category as Dempsey's and Marciano's.

This would also make it inadvisable for Ali to try for a quick stoppage!

 

IdK he can back hand, slap, cuff and clinch to his hearts content.

 

Actually it would cut a lot more ice than you wish to imagine. Containing a big strong man without submission holds is quite a feat.

 

As much as I like to believe Sullivan is at an advantage with more experience, it's just hard to imagine Ali's physical attributes also not making an even greater difference. We can talk about experience in LPR or not, but the oldest rule in fighting is, hit and don't get hit. That is the oldest rule, and Ali was better at that than Sullivan.

Could John L. win, sure, he was special, but I just see Ali being Ali, and cagey enough to figure out what is needed to win. He's fighting under a rule-set, I see nothing that says he has to wear spiked shoes. He wears tennis shoes, lands enough, and doesn't get hit enough, to tire out Sullivan and stop him within 15

 

I will add that I believe Sullivan to have been a very special talent. He would succeed in any era, with that eras benefits, and supposing he controlled his insane alcoholism. That's why I stated earlier that we could reframe this question to give John L a much better chance. He was a legit and legendary bad-@ss.

 

In fights between a wrestler and a boxer, the wrestler usually wins.

I think that fighting under a rule set that allowed wrestling throws, would be problematic for a 20th century champion.

 

A lot is being made of Ali's assumed physical advantages, but what are they exactly?

Height and reach for sure.

10-15lbs in weight, is hardly insurmountable.

It is reasonable to suggest that Ali probably had faster hands, because he had faster hands than almost everybody, but we don't know it to be the case.

Likewise the assumption for him being stronger, rests entirely on the fact that he was stronger than most potential opponents.

Power we would have to assume Sullivan to have the edge in.

I am going to urge caution here!

 

And with that friendly warning from our professor - I'm sure we'll now all tread carefully on this subject.