Just how good of a boxer was James Toney?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Nov 4, 2020.


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  1. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    He wasn’t big just due to taking steroids.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
    Loudon, Nov 8, 2020
    Loudon, Nov 8, 2020
    #136
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  2. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yes, and muscular.
    He was carrying A LOT of steroid muscle.

    This isn't simply a "fat middleweight" .... or a fat version of Toney ..... or "just his natural weight" .....

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    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
    #137
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  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    The same guy as ......

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    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
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  4. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Mostly due to steroids.
     
    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
    #139
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I hardly think that is fair to say. The amount of work you have to put in in the gym to gain a lot of good weight is pretty considerable, you know that. Better to say he wouldn't have been that big without them.
     
    McGrain, Nov 8, 2020
    McGrain, Nov 8, 2020
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  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Well, look at the Vasily Jirov fight and Rydell Booker fight .....
    Those fights happened a mere 17 months apart.

    He actually looked SOFTER against Jirov .... and was, what, 30 or 35 pounds lighter ....

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    Against Booker he virtually looked almost Tua-esque.
    In fact, he looked huge with all the hallmarks of massive steroid physique, bulging deltoids and trapezius muscles.

    Yes, he put work in at the gym, but the majority of that extra mass is brought on by the drugs. It's a game changer.

    And, of course, it's not unlikely that he'd used something in lower divisions too.
     
    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
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  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Exactly.
    It's not even a moderate-noticeable-significant change ........... it's a massive change.
    Like you say, he wasn't even shredded at 160.
    Those traps and delts are cartoon action figure, and he's what, 225 ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
    Unforgiven, Nov 8, 2020
    #142
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  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Debate my points. I greedy told you I agree with your Toney vs Tiberi card outside of round four. Now do you want to score round 4

    Maybe up your mind. There are more GGG wins over Canelo than Draws by media cards. You changed your stance and agreed!. By saying you see 114-114 the most you take out ALL of the 7-5, 7-4-1 and 8-4 cards for GGG. I think you have one issues scoring fights, and your having trouble keeping up with what I'm saying. Blade was the joker who felt Toney won by 3 over Peter.
     
    Mendoza, Nov 8, 2020
    Mendoza, Nov 8, 2020
    #143
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Says an 18 year old kid who has much to learn. What is wrong with post #1, you tell me! Nothing, outside of Toney wasn't that good a boxer which is my point. You don't think he's a top 25 ATG at middle. You'd better keep that quiet around here parts!
     
    Mendoza, Nov 8, 2020
    Mendoza, Nov 8, 2020
    #144
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    That's because you have been hit way too many times to count! Your the #1 hater here, and a banned one to boot.
     
    Mendoza, Nov 8, 2020
    Mendoza, Nov 8, 2020
    #145
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I debated every one of your points. If you REALLY want to debate me though, probably quoting my posts to you is a good idea. You've stopped doing that for some reason...

    What?

    :lol: produce a scorecard, I'll score round four with you. This is the sixth or seventh time I've told you this.

    What?

    This has never been debated, by anyone.

    I'll try again.

    114-114 was the joint most popular media scorecard for GGG-Canelo 1, "data" you "produced" (copied and pasted from Boxrec). Do you agree that 114-114 is a reasonable scorecard in that fight? This is the third time i've asked you this question.

    OK.

    114-114 was the joint most popular media scorecard for GGG-Canelo 1. Do you agree that 114-114 is a reasonable scorecard in that fight? This is the fourth time i've asked you.

    Apart from this card, which cards belonging to Blade would you direct me towards to prove your claim that he is bad at scoring fights?

    This is the third time i've asked you.
     
    McGrain, Nov 8, 2020
    McGrain, Nov 8, 2020
    #146
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  12. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    So you don’t think he was that good of a boxer yet you have him as top 25 MW of all time?

    How does that make any sense?

    For him to be rated as a top 25 MW, he’d had to have been exceptional.

    Please explain.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
    Loudon, Nov 8, 2020
    Loudon, Nov 8, 2020
    #147
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  13. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    @ McGrain On the score cards of Tiberi vs. Toney, now read slowly, I said you card is good, except for round four. So if you remember what you posted, we can score round 4 together. Got it? If you can't remember what you posted you can scroll back and find it.

    You made a mistake calling 114-114 being mentioned more than the GGG decisions, until I pointed it out. Not even close, bud.

    GGG has more votes to win than draws by media cards. Now your trolling for something. Its like saying year fighter X won the fight cleanly but fighter Y landed more hooks to the body. So what! You scorecard of GGG vs Canelo 1 114-114 draw is pure junk. That is the one I am directing toward you. NO 114-114 is not a reasonable card GGG out landed him in 10 of 12 rounds. 114-114 is a bad card.. If the fight was scored 116-112 x2 and one judge having it 114-114 you just scoff at the one judge and it least the decision would be correct.

    I was telling you Blade who's name came up can't score fights and used the Toney vs Peter as an example. That was not directed towards you. You can get off that point now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
    Mendoza, Nov 8, 2020
    Mendoza, Nov 8, 2020
    #148
  14. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

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    There’s no doubt that they helped him. But bulking up was far easy for him to do than staying trim.

    When was the last time he did roadwork?

    I honestly don’t know the answer to that.

    Whereas a guy like Roy Jones had a stint at HW to try and make history, Toney moved up the weights because he was so undisciplined.

    When he hit his 30’s, he couldn’t even make LHW anymore.

    He was struggling to make weight even against Griffin.

    Again, I’ve no doubt that PEDS played a part. But you couldn’t give an unexceptional fighter PEDS and then put him in against world class CW’s and HW’s.

    The only reason that Mendoza is saying PEDS were the only reason that he beat Jirov etc, is because he doesn’t want to give him any credit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
    Loudon, Nov 8, 2020
    Loudon, Nov 8, 2020
    #149
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Produce a scorecard and I'll score round four again.

    I never said this. I have no idea if you are so stupid you really believe I did or are just trolling.

    What is your explanation for the majority or ringsiders scoring the fight either a draw or 7-5, the closest card possible?

    So you admit that you are claiming Blade can't score fights based upon ONE scorecard you disagree with?
     
    McGrain, Nov 8, 2020
    McGrain, Nov 8, 2020
    #150
    Loudon likes this.
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