things I hate about Louis vs Ali debate

Vey nice, especially about Joe's balance and leverage, coupled with his combination punching he was a very dangerous fighter due to those attributes. Ali had fast hands and reflexes but his fundamentals were not that great,, Ali pulled back from punches and rarely slipped and countered. I think Louis will nail Ali at some point early then the fight will be on.

 

Yes, Frazier did have much better defense. Ali would hit Louis at will all night long.

 

Against the slow stiffs from his era.

 

Again, show me a proof. Show me when and why Louis defense was so terrible. So far you only talk and nothing else.

 

... and against Joe Walcott, Billy Conn, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey and dozens of good defensive fighters.

 

Louis was about 6-1 200lbs at his fighting peak. Ali was about 6-3 212lbs. Its Muhammad's mobility at that size that makes the difference.
Joe Louis was very disciplined in the ring. The Brown Bomber wouldn't throw a punch unless he was set and he sense an opening. I dont think Ali gives him too many openings. Joe is gonna be eating jabs and he'll eventually come to respect Ali's right cross. I think Louis takes some damage around the eyes which softened him up for a TKO at the hands of Muhammad Ali.
Joe's best chance is to time Ali with that lightening right hand. It's possible but I would make Muhammad a solid favorite.

 

Walcott had him in all kinds of trouble and knocked him down in their first fight, twice if I remember correctly. In the eyes of many, Walcott won that fight.
Conn was doing very well until he became stupid and started to trade toe to toe.
Schmelling and Sharkey are nowhere near as good defensively as Frazier.

 

Louis was good at parrying jabs.

 

True, but Louis was way past his prime by then. He still knocked him out in rematch.

This is a myth, Conn fought whole fight the same way. Louis just nailed him, because you know what? He was good at punching people.

True, they were better.

 

Yeah, but there might not have been a rematch if the judges would have been fair. And even if there would have been, Louis would have another loss on his CV. I agree with you though that he was in the twilight of his career.

No, he did not fight the same way. He pushed his luck in the 13th and decided to try to KO Louis, instead of boxing smart.

Not way. Frazier was far more elusive and harder to hit clean. And please stop overrating Sharkey, he clearly ain't an ATG.

 

One thing I cannot stand about sports debates is when people say things like "All Time Great Athlete X from Era A would DESTROY All Time Great Athlete Y from Era B". This forum is better than most when having these discussions but it still pops up frequently. It's disrespectful of the athletes, whose talent differentials are usually miniscule at that level of competition, and makes whomever's making the argument sound like a fool. Was Michael Jordan better than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson? Yeah probably, but nowhere as much as people would have you believe, and the relative success of their teams would likely have been the same if you switched them around.

Ali and Louis would have been the most gifted fighter the other one ever fought. Ali is certainly capable of using the ring effectively like Tommy Farr and throwing effective counter rights like Schmeling against Louis's low left. Louis is absolutely capable of winning the battle of the jabs ala Norton and his combination of speed, power, technique would make him the most devastating puncher Ali ever faced by a longshot. I might favor Ali in the first fight and Louis in a rematch. Maybe one would wipe the floor with the other. It's a pick 'em.

 

This. Both Ali and Louis were complete fighters at their best, so it’s hard to pick one over the other.

 

Another loss, which would mean total of 4 losses in the long career facing more contenders than any other HW in history. Ali himself had more losses than that.
Ali lost to Ken Norton who was clearly worse fighter than Louis - I can use it as well as you can use Walcott fight.

Have you watched the fight or do you spread narratives?

No, he wasn't. Frazier had excellent head movement and I think his defense gets underrated by most, but he was a come forward fighter without quick feet who ate a lot of punches. Schmeling was much more defensive minded than Frazier and Sharkey was definitely more elusive than Frazier - come on...

I never said he was, but he was better defensively than Frazier. Clearly worse fighter overall, but inarguably harder to catch.

 

The argument for Ali's competition being better than Louis's, rests on the fact that they beat him, and he beat them in return.

This logic is somewhat circular.

So as a Louis fan, I try to objectively analyze whether Ali's opponents were better, if you take away the fact that they beat Ali.

Ali might just have been crap right?

Damn it, they are still better!

 

Ali never reached his peak. He was in exile during the years when he would have.