As much as these two are legends in their own right, and I have heard a few casual references to some of their similarities, but of all the extensive comparisons that go on either P4P or within a single division, I have never seen any comparisons on the two. Naturally, I would be the one 2 bring it up ha ha. 1) Most clearly, both were monster punchers. 2) Both used psychological warfare on their opponents, primarily in the staredowns. 3) Both had ATG jabs. 4) Both were plauders up until the knockout. 5) Both were most dangerous in the first 5 rounds of the fight, but then lost their effectiveness. I must say that this point is the most contentious of all of them, since Liston had shown that he could be dangerous in the later rounds, but only has one knockout in the double digits (I think; don't hold me 2 it). 6) Both had epic chins. As I was noting these points in my brain, I began to ask myself some questions, which I would love to hear your guys' thoughts on. Personally, I think they're all very hard to pick: 1) Who was the more powerful man? 2) Who was more intimidating? 3) Who had the better jab? 4) Who had the superior chin? 5) Lastly, and unrelated to the 6 points above, who had better defense?
1. Liston 2. Equal 3. Liston 4. Equal 5. Liston Sonny was more patient. Foreman was a bigger, raw version of Liston that didn't utilize that jab as consistently. Foreman was more devastating early. Foreman cut the ring better than Sonny. George's stamina problem made him a little bit more vulnerable at the elite level.
Problem with a lot of these answers, yours above included, is that you can't have it every which way with Foreman. To be fair to Liston, the participants in this debate have to pick Foreman at a particular stage of his career and live with how he fought then. If Foreman had a pretty good defense in the 90s would he then have been good enough in other aspects of his game to defeat a prime Liston? He also had better judgment and was also mentally tougher in the 90s. But the young Foreman had the stamina, speed, strength, and drive of youth in his favor. You can't cherry-pick his best qualities from different eras and then come up with pan-era "Super Foreman" to face Liston.
I didn't specify this, but I do only mean the '69-'77 Foreman. However, I pointed out George's defense in the 90s merely for the sake of making note of it, I wasn't really using it for my answer to the fifth question.
Power: Foreman Intimidation: Liston Jab: Liston Chin: Foreman Defense: not sure Probably my top HW fantasy fight ever. I'd go with 55~60% Liston win.
1) Who was the more powerful man? FOREMAN 2) Who was more intimidating? FOREMAN 3) Who had the better jab? LISTON 4) Who had the superior chin? EQUAL (BUT LISTON IS MORE TOUGH) 5) Lastly, and unrelated to the 6 points above, who had better defense? LISTON
I can get the comparison between these two of course, but I've never really bought it. They're very different fighters with a few standout similarities. They both hit like Mack trucks, they both destroyed their best wins, they both had ramrod jabs and they both lost to Ali. Any notion about their staredowns and intimidation techniques can be squashed IMO, since Foreman has admitted to copying them from Liston. Outside of the above, they're very different. Liston was a boxer-buncher, who set people up with his left to hook off the jab and is very good fundamentally. In the colour verison of the Williams fight, I saw a good array of feints, slips, parries and blocking, as well as serviceable footwork and a variation on his jab, which could either stop you dead in your tracks, or control you and what you do. He didn't have the technical application of an old Foreman's, or the ability to work off it as a young Foreman, but his actual use of it was more impressive. Problem is, that is was quite slow. Ali came over the top with straight rights and jabbed with him using his speed. He was very talented, physically. He hit like a ****ing tank, was teak tough, accurate and sharp, but slow and short. His notable weakness is that he couldn't cut the ring off. I disagree, I think he couldn't cut the ring off vs Ali. No shame there IMO. Foreman's technique wasn't pretty, but it wasn't God awful. He did like to wing some massive shots, but most of them time they either served their purpose as to get his man to move into a brutal short shot, or landed outright and knocked them out. Archie Moore also taught him some brilliant grappling tactics, where he learnt how to leverage his size and set up his punches when his opponents inevitably clinched. One of my favourite things about Foreman is his mummy/long guard. He'd hold his arms in-between the end of his reach, and right up against his face, and then smother the shots that the opponent threw. When he was walking someone down, and he was just pulling their arms around and completely removing their ability to punch while twatting them with these monster jabs. It's just an awesome mix and it must be completely debilitating for a scared opponent. Also, it often gets touted that Foreman was slow, inaccurate and uncoordinated. Wrong. Look vs Ali. Sure, he missed a lot, but everyone missed a lot vs Ali. But look at how quick he threw body punches in bunches. And look vs Frazier, where he threw Frazier off balance and pivoted to the side. He wasn't Ricardo Lopez, but he certainly knew what he was doing more than a Marciano or a Dempsey. He was pretty quick, very very strong and tough, with some of the most crushing power of all-time. Chin and Power goes to Foreman, whereas Defence, Jab & Intimidation go to Liston, IMO.
You have a fine essay George, but I will never be able to buy into the idea that Liston was a boxer-puncher. It's one of the worst ideas of the 21st century.
