Would Frazier Bring Down Iron Chinned Vitali?

I was referring to your pattern of debate.

 

I think all boxers - and particularly heavyweights - can be mythologized by their fan-base, to some extent - but certain Vitali fans take this to a whole new level.

Whilst it is true that Vitali was physically big, strong and tough, there's no getting away from the fact that he lost to the two best opponents he met - and Vitali held important advantages in both those bouts. This has to be taken into consideration and one has to wonder about his mindset, for fights in which things aren't going all his own way.

The rest of VK's ledger is nondescript. So, a lot of imagination is required when matching up against more proven fighters.

The idea that Vitali replicates Foreman's destruction of Frazier is one I find quite hilarious.

 

Mongoose had the ban bet with Dino that Dino then welched on. He's a special one alright

 

As long as you frame the question that way you'll get no argument from me. Vitali had more left in his tank at 37+years old than Joe did. Most of us understand there is more to it than just age. Ring miles, style of fighting, level of competition all factor in. Ali lost to Trevor Berbick at 38? 39? What does that have to do with Muhammad dancing all over Vitali near his prime? Anytime pre 1975.

In a sense by steering the argument clear of a prime or near peak version of Joe Frazier your conceding the main part of the discussion.

 

Nah...Joe was at his best vs Cummings. 229lbs was always his trim fighting weight.

 

If Frazier woud unerestimate Vitali the same as he did Foreman in 1973, this scenario would be possible.

Look what Vitali did with Danny Williams and Kirk Johnson. Sure, when it comes to skill and heart they are bums compared to Frazier, but both guys are bigger and heavier then him. Johnson´s weight was 260lb/117,9kg/18.6stone for that fight, he was not in shape thats clear.
And i would never go so far and call Williams a glass chin or something, the guy could take something.



I think the poll shows - to me surprise - that Boxing fans can be neutral and dont glorify the old gold generation (Ali, Frazier, Foreman) too much and stay realsitic.

Prime Vitali 2002-2004 would have been a very difficult castle for Frazier to conquer, Ali would do it, Foreman too, but for Joe it would be VERY difficult.

Vitali´s reach is not impressive, 6´7´´/201cm tall, 79inch/201cm reach, but take a look on his legs, he has damn long legs, exactly like Fury or Jean-Claude van Damme, i mean the lenght of the legs in relation to the upperbody.
When he leans backwards, he is almost impossible to hit on the head for smaller guys, honestly you can see he is like unreachable for them, except fora prime Tyson for example, who is so much faster then Frazier.

Dont forget Frazier´ chin was great, but not as great as Chuvalo or McCall, by far not! He was KD multiple times in his career, the other two not once, Chuvalo not in 90+ pro fights.

And Vitali´s punches in his prime were damn hard, maybe very much like AJs punches. And Frazier would have need to come inside to land his shots on Vitali´s body, but Vitali could hit him all the time, especially from the outside.

Vitali himself is too tough to go down from Frazier´s punches, despite i am one of the guys who HIGHLY doubt his so called "IRONCHIN".

He doesnt have one!
He took 3-4 full power shots from Lewis and 2-3 from Sanders without going down, this doesnt make you an ironjaw!
When he got hit by Lewis and Sanders, he was hurt. Lewis did not hurt him so much with his monster uppercut since it hit more Vitali´s lip than his jaw, but he did hurt him badly in the last 16 seconds of the 6th and final round before the stoppage. It was a short cross to Vitali´s temple, a punch that he never expected and never saw coming.
And when Sanders hit him in the 1st and 3rd round, he was running away and moving backards. This is NOT the behaviour of an ironchin! Chuvalo and McCall would simply eat such shots and still moving fowards, not running away or holding.

Vitali got completely removed from consciousness at the age of 21 by some weak spinning back kick from Pele Reid. The kick was not even with full force. Look in K-1 how Peter Graham KOed Badr Hari with a kick like that, this was a full force, not that lame kick by Reid.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DeepReasonableArchaeocete-size_restricted.gif

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UltimateEmbarrassedAfricancivet-max-1mb.gif

 

Thats a good video there highlighting the great uppercut by Foreman.. The same uppercut you think Vitali would also throw to dispatch of Frazier..lol. Moron.

You'll find plenty youtube videos highlighting Foremans great uppercut.. Show me a video highlighting Vitali's uppercut?? Or how about showing me one stoppage Vitali ever produced with an uppercut.. I'll be awaiting the footage

 

Yeah I mentioned that to him

 

I never stated Vitali would use and uppercut on Frazier. I never even mentioned Vitali using an uppercut. You insult people for no reason and seem to take differing opinions personally. You also seem to have some boxing knowledge but it’s clouded by your overt angry emotional state.

I made a statement earlier that I thought what you stated was “the dumbest thing I’d read all day.” Please note I didn’t insult you. I didn’t call you dumb. I don’t feel the need to insult people and you do. It’s all over this thread. This make me sad.

Since I never stated Vitali would need or use an uppercut, which you based your argument on, it’s a straw man argument. Since straw man arguments are manufactured, one sided and irrelevant due to the fact that they don’t address what was actually stated, I don’t know how you’d like to continue discourse.

I’m sorry you’re angry, I’m sorry you can’t disagree without being aggressively disagreeable. I’m sorry you feel the need to insult people who have different opinions.

Your life will continue to difficult if you have an emotional reaction to everything.

I hope you grow as a person in 2021 and wish you the best.

 

I haven’t ignored any criticisms of Vitali. And he’s not one of my favorite fighters either. He’s unimpressive to watch and robotic. And the defeats to chris Byrd and an old Lewis do his resume no favors.. but despite all the above he’s lost fewer rounds than any belt holder in history. He’s stopped 41 of 45 opponents. He has a proven chin, proven power, the ability to go 12 rounds and was still beating ranked men at age 40. He stands nearly 8 inches taller than Joe Frazier and outweighs him by about 40 muscular pounds. There may be some stylistic attributes which play into Frazier’s hands but joe is still going to have to take a lot of punishment to capitalize on them and have to outlast a man who wouldn’t have to work half as hard as he would... so can it be done ? Maybe. But not something I would personally feel comfortable betting on. While I’ve heard some reasonable arguments in favor of Joe Frazier, claiming that Vitali was like Joe Bugner or that the chris Byrd fight is any indication of the outcome aren’t among them.

 

Why are you getting all defensive?? I want to make this about Foreman and Vitali , but you seem hellbent on making it all about me. Stick to the topic. Slinging mud back and forth just doesn't interest me like it does you.

And just to clear something up , i barely knew of your existence until you quoted ME a few hours ago. . That first quote was an insult . You're giving me a taking down for throwing insults , when your first post to me was an insult..
So your advice is better directed to your own-self , weirdo.

 

I see you just edited your post to delete the evidence .. Post #202 last edited 7 mins ago.. On your bike son.. lol!

 

I don't think Frazier underestimated Foreman and I doubt he'd take VK lightly, either. It's just that there's really no comparison in styles, strength, armory, power, movement, mindset or delivery between VK and Big George.

Foreman was a tuned killer, who was all about offense, no matter what his opponent was doing on the defensive and counteroffensive. He put opponents under immense pressure from the get go, knowing he could end the fight conclusively with either hand.

Vitali was more an awkward, arm-punching, one-two artist, who excelled against relatively static targets and was okay with taking his time in doing so. The bigger and less mobile his opponent, the better he liked it, since it allowed him to freely showcase his best weapons. The smaller, more lithe opponents could appear to give him relatively more trouble (Bean, Byrd).


On Frazier/Klitschko, I don't think anyone is saying it would be a walk in the park for Joe, but there are levels and, in terms of the quality of opposition, Vitali never operated successfully at the level Frazier did.

Imagine Vitali stepping in with that jab of his, flicked up from the waist, while keeping his right hand low (something of a VK feature) against Frazier. He'd be ripe for the left hook.

Even if we consider the narrow aspect of Vitali's lean-back defense, this still leaves his body exposed to Frazier. This situation would perhaps be worse for Vitali than having his head exposed, given that Frazier was an excellent body puncher.

Combine the above with the relentlessness of a prime Frazier, bobbing and weaving his way inside where Vitali is more or less bereft of ideas and I think we can see how things could come together and make a Frazier victory quite realistic.

 

Wow you GOT EM!!!!!!!!

Lol

 

This is a good discerning post Drago!
Although I would say that while Vitali did not have an impressive wingspan relative to his height-it was about exactly the same, like most of us have, Leonardo's "Golden ratio"...79" is still substantial, & along with his height making his head harder to reach, still would be a lot for Frazier to deal with.

Also if anything a longer torso, not legs, would make leaning back more difficult to reach you at the same height, right?
Yet even here, without a relatively long torso, Vitali's was still pretty long compared to most.