Is that part of the problem with the WBSS? That they select divisions that tend to be weak overall

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020.


Page 1 of 10
  1. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,640
    18,437
    Jun 25, 2014
    After winning the tournament, everyone said Usyk was going to clean out the heavyweights. Now that Usyk moved up to heavyweight he hasn't looked good at all against the very limited Chazz Witherspoon and Dereck Chisora.

    Gassiev, who was supposed to be the killer of the group, has been MIA going on the better part of three years and hasn't fought anyone of note since the tournament.

    Callum Smith struggled with the inept John Ryder after the tournament and looked way out of his league Saturday night against Canelo moreso than any other recent Alvarez opponents.

    Groves retired.

    Briedis spent half his career at heavy and half at cruiser, decided cruiser would be easier, beat Dorticos to win the last Cruiserweight WBSS, and he's shown no interest in moving back up.

    Dorticos basically lost to a couple of the underwhelming guys above. Seems like a nice guy. But he isn't winning anything.

    Other than Inoue, it looks like none of the top guys of these tournaments were as good as they were made out to be after making it to the finals or winning.

    Anyone think Josh Taylor is going to be a star boxing in one of the worst divisions in the sport? Think he'll move up and fight the top welterweights?

    Is that part of the problem with the WBSS? That they select divisions that tend to be weak overall, because the champs in the better divisions can make more fighting each other? The cruiserweight tournament fights were competitive, but competitive doesn't mean the fighters are elite.

    When these began, I think people thought the winners would be on par with the Super Six tournament finalists (Ward and Froch). I don't think that's the trend, though.

    Although the Usyk diehards are still insisting Usyk is coming to take over the heavyweights.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    #1
    KO KIDD likes this.
  2. Richmondpete

    Richmondpete Real fighters do road work Full Member

    7,140
    5,026
    Oct 22, 2015
    Pretty much. While the wbss was competitive and fun to watch, the whole idea that it was a division teeming with talent was wishful thinking and nothing more. 168 and Cruiser will forever be second rate divisions and I don't see that ever changing
     
    Richmondpete, Dec 21, 2020
    Richmondpete, Dec 21, 2020
    #2
    Dubblechin likes this.
  3. Chuck Norris

    Chuck Norris Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    25,989
    37,130
    Aug 31, 2016
    The OP clearly has no understanding of boxing.
     
    Chuck Norris, Dec 21, 2020
    Chuck Norris, Dec 21, 2020
    #3
    Rubber Glove Sandwich, DJN16, George Crowcroft and 22 others like this.
  4. gollumsluvslave

    gollumsluvslave Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,370
    5,353
    Dec 20, 2020
    Callum Smith's win at 168 Ali trophy win, I don't think that was great 168 line up by any stretch Compare it to the original 168 Super Six and it's night and day.

    Don't think we can say the same about the Cruiserwieights and Uysk's year quitye yet. That was a great tourney, and Usyk ain't done yet. Jury is out on that one.

    Regarding the 140 WBSS, that one gave some great fights and the final between Prograis and Taylor was my pick for FOTY - high-quality, lots of ebb and flow. I think Taylor will beat Ramirez, and Rougarou will come again, and both will move up to 147. A re-match between them at 147 is quite the prospect.
     
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    #4
    DJN16, The Akbar One, shza and 5 others like this.
  5. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,640
    18,437
    Jun 25, 2014
    Apparently, neither do most of the WBSS finalists once the tournament is over. (LOL)

    Therein lies the problem.

    It's as plain as the lump on Callum Smith's left arm. I don't think hitting Canelo over the head with the Muhammad Ali trophy would've helped him Saturday.
     
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    #5
    Staminakills likes this.
  6. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,640
    18,437
    Jun 25, 2014
    Many tournament fights have been very good. I agree. But, like I said, competitive fights don't necessarily mean these guys are elite.

    We all seemed to take for granted it did mean that. Like this tournament was a star-making turn. But, once the tournament is over, they don't look so elite.

    We'll see with Taylor. He came out of the tournament the ruler of a bad division. I think Ramirez is terrible. And that division blows. IMO, 135 and 147 are both MUCH TOUGHER divisions than 140.

    Is he going to get steamrolled once the top lighweights start moving up? Can he move up to 147 and beat anyone?

    I don't see it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    #6
  7. gollumsluvslave

    gollumsluvslave Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,370
    5,353
    Dec 20, 2020
    I think there is a difference between saying WBSS fighters "aren't that great after all" vs, "WBSS is not producing Elite fighters"

    I would say it's pretty inarguable the 3 "elite" fighters have come through WBSS - Ward, Inoue and Usyk. Personally I think Prograis both are P4P level, but need to see more before they are Elite. However, if Taylor get's undisputed by beating Ramirez, then he has done it in a better 140 than Crawford did - Crawford didn't beat anyone like Prograis.

    I think Taylor has just a good chance of going up and doing similar to Crawford - and one thing is for sure, TTT will want the best fighters that can be made. He really does want to fight the best.

    One final point regarding the divisions - I think it's harder with the marguee divisions to make the WBSS because of names, egos and money. Just look at Spence and Crawford. Making WBSS type competition at 147, 160 and Heavyweight is a fools errand, can't see that ever happening.

    I also think this Covid year has really messed with what folks could realistically achieve in 2020
     
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    #7
  8. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,640
    18,437
    Jun 25, 2014
    Who is Ward? If you're referring to Andre Ward, he never participated in the WBSS.

    I stated in the first post I wasn't including Inoue.

    Usyk hasn't looked elite since he moved up. Gassiev hasn't looked elite since then. Smith hasn't looked elite. Groves retired. Dorticos (no). Briedis is good but fled the heavyweight division after spending half his career there and looks like he prefers to be a big fish not even in a small pond, more like a puddle.

    We'll see with Taylor.
     
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    #8
  9. gollumsluvslave

    gollumsluvslave Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,370
    5,353
    Dec 20, 2020
    I don't think you can argue that WBSS isn't producing great fighters then conveniently ignore Inoue and Andrew Ward (original Super Six) IMO.

    That said, I don't think anything lived up to the original Super Six, and some of the financial rumblings from Prograis on it were not encouraging as to it's future.
     
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    #9
  10. Bigcheese

    Bigcheese Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,919
    2,498
    Jun 7, 2015
    Usyk is going down as an all time great, regardless what he accomplishes at heavyweight
     
    Bigcheese, Dec 21, 2020
    Bigcheese, Dec 21, 2020
    #10
    George Crowcroft, catchwtboxing, kojak and 7 others like this.
  11. gollumsluvslave

    gollumsluvslave Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,370
    5,353
    Dec 20, 2020
    Ok, I guess you can say that Andrew Ward didn't win a WBSS - he won the Super Six Boxing Classic, but I guess I assumed that most folks saw that as the inaugural Super Six tourney.

    But it was essentially the same tourney as WBSS, organised and funded by the same guys IIRC.
     
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    #11
  12. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,640
    18,437
    Jun 25, 2014
    The WBSS isn't the Super Six. Totally different tournament. Different rules entirely. It's not a round robin. Different number of participants. Everything.

    Andre Ward never fought in the WBSS. So you can't say the WBSS produced Andre Ward any more than you can say the WBSS produced Mike Tyson. (LOL)

    I said in my first post I think people believe the winners of the WBSS would be elites like the finalists of the Super Six, but they haven't. And I said in my first post I wasn't including Inoue. How many times do I have to say that?
     
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    #12
  13. gollumsluvslave

    gollumsluvslave Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,370
    5,353
    Dec 20, 2020
    Anyway,s I never really saw the point of WBSS was to give us Elite fighters per-se, but to give us great fights in that division, with the "best fighting the best" and I think it's mostly delivered on that IMO
     
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    gollumsluvslave, Dec 21, 2020
    #13
    radupidu likes this.
  14. Slovenian

    Slovenian New Member banned Full Member

    13
    14
    Dec 6, 2020
    "aren't that great" but you just listed 2 pfp best today, Usyk and Inoue.
     
    Slovenian, Dec 21, 2020
    Slovenian, Dec 21, 2020
    #14
    gmurphy, JunlongXiFan, h8me and 1 other person like this.
  15. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,640
    18,437
    Jun 25, 2014
    I'm glad you brought that up.

    Usyk isn't considered PFP based on his performances at heavyweight. Winning that tournament gave Usyk PFP status.

    Now that we've stepped away from it and can see it from a little distance, should winning the WBSS have elevated Usyk that high?

    He didn't look pound-for-pound against Chazz Witherpsoon or Dereck Chisora, that's for damn sure.
     
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    Dubblechin, Dec 21, 2020
    #15
Page 1 of 10