Rocky Marciano vs Cleveland Williams

Agreed. Some on here don't like to admit it.

 

Rocky gets inside Williams' power zone and goes to work. That reach advantage becomes a disadvantage when the shorter armed opponent is in their power range, which is what Marciano did to all his opponents. There's no reason to think Williams would be any different, notwithstanding the chance that he could catch Rocky with a big shot a knock him out, remembering that Marciano had a granite chin and was never stopped.

You'd have to pick the Rock on historical evidence, but this is heavy weight boxing.

 

Let's bring people back to reality here. Exactly what footage alludes that Cleveland Williams has a likely chance of knocking Marciano out? His knockout losses to Liston? Ali? How about when he was way past prime and couldn't keep George freaking Chuvalo off of him for 10 rounds?

The fact of the matter is Williams was a good contender for his era and not much more. He was a pretty standard big punching heavyweight with no real defense or ability to outbox his opponent. He came right to you and was there to be hit. Not to mention he had a pretty breakable chin. Would Cleveland Williams put up a good fight against Marciano? Yes, sure. Would he favorably beat Marciano in any outcome? No, not in my opinion from what I've seen and read.

 

1. Marciano was not Liston.

2. Williams was ultra shot (Literally) when he fought Ali.

Again, you yourself acknowledged Williams was "way past prime" when he fought Chuvalo. He had literally nothing let. Just bringing that up is laughable.

You know who else "couldn't keep George freaking Chuvalo off of him"? A prime Muhammad Ali.

You should watch his fight against Machen if you think he had "no ability to outbox his opponent"

Funnily enough, so was Marciano

Look at my post on the first page, where I broke down the misconception of Williams having "a pretty breakable chin"

 

From memory, Williams didn't have good footwork, but neither did Rocky Marciano. Williams was much bigger and faster than RM. RM never fought anybody with the physical talent of Williams and RM didn't have the boxing skill or quickness to overcome his physical limitations. IMO Chuvalo is a bigger, stronger, more skilled fighter than RM, he just fought better talent. If Chuvalo had been carefully managed and fought on the NE circuit for most of his career and the best he ever fought were JJW, Ezzard Charles, and the version of Joe Louis that RM fought, he probably would be undefeated too.

 

Never made the equivalence. I asked what footage you all are basing your claims on and threw out the actual footage we have of Williams which is mostly of him losing. You just don't like that.

As I recall, Muhammad Ali Unanimously defeated Chuvalo whereas Williams lost a split decision. False equivalency btw. Chuvalo was 34 against Williams (38) and was 28 against Ali. Big difference in ring age there. The commentators even said the fight would have been great if it was fought 15 years earlier.

Yeah Cleveland Williams totally outboxed Eddie Machen to a draw that left him with a "cut on the mouth and a mouse over his right eye" and left Machen completely unscarred. Btw I bet you had a great time watching a fight that isn't available to watch lol you probably should have looked up that one buddy. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=eddie+machen+vs+cleveland+williams

If it's actually available please link it. I'd love to watch it.

Cleveland was 6'3 and didn't know how to really use his range. Marciano was 5'10 and knew exactly how to get in range. I'll take Marciano over Cleveland Williams coming at each other face first. Marciano was never knocked out.

I didn't say he had a glass chin. I said it was pretty breakable which it was. 8 times it was actually. 3 times before fighting Ali. Lasted a combined total of 8 rounds in 3 different fights that took place before Ali. Never making it past the 3rd round.

 

The only footage we have of Williams decisively losing is against two bonafide prime ATGs, who fought NOTHING like Marciano. He gave one of them a good run for his money, and nearly knocked him out by his own admission. Against the other he was shot literally.

Williams had been boxing for 20 years, Chuvalo for 15.

Williams was was 38 to Chuvalo's 34.

Williams had 90 fights at this point his career, Chuvalo 82.

Chuvalo was rated in the top 10 that year, Williams hadn't been for 5 years plus.

Oh yeah, and Chuvalo didn't get shot, die 6 times on the operating table, barely survive, come out with partial paralysis and a shadow of himself.

I was using this fight to demonstrate that Williams wasn't this limited puncher you make him out to be, or Machen would've easily outclassed him. But he didn't.

"Williams, a powerful left hooker, shook Machen in the 3rd and 8th rounds. Machen scored heavily with his effective counter-punching."

"Williams the no. 5 contender felt he had turned in an upset. Most of the crowd of 10,000 partial perhaps to the hometown favorite and one judge agreed." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/paper/the-news-review/3596/

I believe it was filmed and have been searching for footage of it, if I find anything I will let you know.

I wouldn't. I think this looks like Foreman-Frazier tbh. Marciano is going to come at someone who's 30-40 pounds heavier, stronger, a half foot taller, is faster, hits harder,

If he had to go up against a prime Sonny Liston 2x or got shot at point blank range, nearly got killed, and came back a shadow of himself and faced an absolute peak Muhammad Ali. I think things would've turned out a wee bit different.

As I've previously said, I made an in-depth breakdown on this very topic. Will post it below

 

There is a certain type of poster that champions fighters that accomplished nothing..

Their opinion don't amount to much.

 

Poor Big Cat ..

Feasted off bums In Texas..
KOed by a man 20 pounds lighter
Couldn't do anything

 

Yea, I see it the same way. Maricano would grind Williams down over the course of about 9-10 rounds. He may see the canvas at some point but Rocky would dig deeper than Cleveland Williams and finish him with his own two handed power. Power and pressure.
Rocky weighed 188lbs but he hit like he weighed 250.

 

Williams is no Foreman. There is a lot of things Big George had that Cleveland didn't. Murderous intensity, elite finishing instincts, iron chin and fearless aggression. For example when Frazier scored a decent hook on George he didn't lose his taste for Combat. He brushed it right off.

Marciano is in the same ballpark as Joe Frazier. He'll never show any fear or stop throwing leather. At the end of the day Rocky is taking this fight to a place that really has nothing to do with boxing.

 

Totally agree.

 

Cleveland Big Cat Williams fought George Chuvalo on Nov 17 1971 in Houston, Texas. It was on the undercard of Muhammad Ali vs Buster Mathis, I heard both fights over the radio. The Ali vs Mathis fight was shown on ABC's Wide World Of Sports the following Saturday. They were playing old songs as Buster was clinching, essentially they were making fun of Mathis, laughing at his extra weight jiggling, as he was holding on to Ali.

 

As soon as Marciano fought better fellows, his KO-rounds balooned to an avarage of more than 9, including a Walcott who wanted to get up. At better level, Rocky was more of an atrittion puncher than a KO-artist, and that includes blown up LHWs and old fighters. This could favour Williams, who didn´t have the best chin either, but would be the hardest and quickest fighter Rocky faced. If I could, I´d vote: I don´t know.

 

I don´t know where that comes from, but in real physics this is not going to happen with a 185lb volume puncher. A fighter who had the size, power and volume (chin too) like Ibeabuchi for example, would have gone 149 - 0 in the 50s.