How "Past It '' Was Sonny Liston Defending Against Ali?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Jan 4, 2021.

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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Some of this chat is just bizarre. Of course it's not an excuse to say that he could have done with more rounds, it's incontrovertible fact. Of course, it's not an excuse that he was carrying a shoulder injury that was exacerbated during the fight - surely that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course it's been shown that it was reasonably likely that Liston was drinking and that that was undermining to him. Anyone paying attention on this forum can recite this stuff, what's the problem?

    It's just more heavyweight hysteria. And it doesn't even matter.

    Ali proved beyond all doubt that he was great and beating Liston is absolutely a part of a wider pattern of him defeating great and very good fighters.

    So strange, how people are so intent on taking an aggressive stance on a given fighter (usually a heavyweight and take a repetitive, nay permanent, entrenched position to the point where their posts on the subject are entirely predictable.
     
    McGrain, Jan 8, 2021
    #76
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  2. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Justa couple of wrinkles left then:

    35 or 40?
    Injury and/or fix?
    Booze and/or heroin?
     
    Bokaj, Jan 8, 2021
    #77
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  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yes.
     
    Unforgiven, Jan 8, 2021
    #78
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think we have agreement here.
     
    Bokaj, Jan 8, 2021
    #79
  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    It is optional.
    All or any of the options, mix and match.

    I'd go for 40, FIX and booze.
    light on the injury, no heroin.
     
    Unforgiven, Jan 8, 2021
    #80
  6. Oddone

    Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

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    Physical prime, no.

    Mental prime, yes.

    Boxing is at least fifty percent mental.


    Those back to back wins were what caused his rapid psychological decline and caused him to lose interest, same as Tyson Fury beating Klitschko.

    Liston basically thought he’d get everything he ever wanted once he won the title. Respect, money, fame, love from the crowd. After he beat Patterson and came home, he was expecting a large group of press and fans at his plane arrival (like Patterson had when he won) and maybe even a parade. When he landed there wasn’t anyone really.

    Try to imagine working your entire career with a goal and believing achieving that goal would make you happy and solve all your problems. When it doesn’t some people turn to cocaine and the buffet (Tyson Fury) some people turn into anti-social animals (Mike Tyson) and some like Liston just fade quickly after losing their drive.

    Liston was a machine, not a natural athlete and when he lost the sole reason he had to care, the machine broke.
     
    Oddone, Jan 8, 2021
    #81
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  7. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If you are going 40, that means he was born sometime in 1923 or in January 1924. Do you have any facts at all to back that up? Any at all? Any?

    Census records show 1930. He claimed 1932.

    Where, honestly, do you get 1923 to January 1924?

    Seriously. I'd like to know. How did you come up with 40?

    That's like having trouble telling the difference between someone born in 2013 and someone born last month.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
    Dubblechin, Jan 8, 2021
    #82
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  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Good point.
    33 then.
     
    Unforgiven, Jan 8, 2021
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  9. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's clear to me even peak Liston wouldn't have been able to handle Ali's heretofore unseen combination of hand and foot speed.
     
    Saad54, Jan 8, 2021
    #84
  10. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Patterson had faster hands and maybe feet than Ali.
     
    NoNeck, Jan 8, 2021
    #85
  11. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He couldn't glide around Liston like Ali did. Watch the fights.
     
    Saad54, Jan 8, 2021
    #86
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  12. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Just saying, Liston saw handspeed before Ali. Better handspeed.
     
    NoNeck, Jan 8, 2021
    #87
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  13. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    This is all ridiculous. Liston was clearly 78 when he lost to Ali the first time and 96 when he lost to him in the rematch. He was 124 years old when he died.
     
    klompton2, Jan 8, 2021
    #88
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  14. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    This is about it. Much of this is carved in stone.
     
    JohnThomas1, Jan 8, 2021
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  15. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    He's not saying any different.
     
    JohnThomas1, Jan 8, 2021
    #90
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