Primo Carnera vs. KO Christner I (full fight now on youtube)

Also Schmeling stated that Carnera was a really good fighter, but oddly underrated. One reason might be his devastating loss against Max Baer. Though it`s difficult, once you're dazed, the opponent is strong and there is no time to recover...

 

Mark Young took a dive against Mike Tyson. The punched that launched him "flying" across the ring didn't even land. Young fought everyone. Lost to everyone. Those "opponents" have always been in the sport. To "jump" to the conclusion that ANY of his losses were "prearranged" when he lost to "everyone" all the time makes no sense. Sometimes he lasted eight rounds. Sometimes he didn't come out of his corner when the bell rang. Sometimes he flew across the ring when nothing landed. He's a professional opponent. You book him because he isn't going to put up much of a fight. EVERY BOXER in the sport then and now have those guys on their records.

Hector Avila in the Joshua clip I posted the other day is a professional opponent. When they signed Joshua to fight Avila, they knew Joshua would win, because Avila always loses. He was there to make Joshua look good. Is that a "prearranged" fix? Is it a "prearranged fix" every time a guy steps in the ring and the odds aren't even that his opponent might beat him, too?

There was a series of articles called the BAWLI papers on Cyberboxingzone. They included a bunch of old articles. They are still there, I think. I remember reading one where a writer from the 50s was complaining about the televised boxing cards in the 1950s and all the mismatches (which we still see every week these days). And the writer said you don't need to fix fights anymore. You fix them with the matchmaking.

Looking at boxing now and looking at it during Carnera's era, Carnera mainly fought guys his team knew he could beat, just like guys coming up today do in every division. And Carnera was an immigrant who was invading America and had a lot of hype, everything about him was bigger than life, so the knockover wins were blown out of proportion, too. These guys he was beating were falling down against everyone else, too, but there weren't 30,000 people watching them fall down when other guys dropped them.

Every opponent you've mentioned to "prove" Carnera's career was a sham were professional opponents who lost to all the name guys and rising prospects back then.

 

The problem is back then there were a few sources for information. If the narrative was your fights were fixed, then that was the narrative. That's why the team around Joe Louis was so nervous about how the media portrayed him. They didn't want it to look like he was fooling around with white women or that he was overly confident in his ability, even though he did and he was. The guys who fixed the World Series Arnold Rothstein and his pal Max "Boo Boo" Hoff were tied to Gene Tunney before the first Dempsey fight. Gave Tunney's team money to train. Rothstein supposedly won a half million dollars betting on the upset. Dempsey thought he'd been poisoned the day of that fight. Nobody calls that a fix, just a clear Tunney decision win. But if Carnera had upset Dempsey and those guys were paying for Carnera's training camp and winning half a million on the upset and Dempsey thought he'd been poisoned ... forget it. But Tunney's image in the press wasn't as a "mob fighter." He was the "intellectual." It's not even a topic for discussion that there was anything "untoward" in the first Dempsey-Tunney fight.

The same guys Carnera was beating were losing to everyone else, too. If there is a report a guy didn't look like he tried very hard, there are fights every week we watch where a guy facing an up and comer doesn't look like he's trying very hard. Everyone has fought those guys.

Ron Lyle didn't look like he was even remotely trying to beat Gerry Cooney. If a Carnera opponent showed up and newspapers then said he looked like he wasn't trying to win, it's "ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A FIX." It's just been way too over the top for way too long.

Hell, practically every freaking Matchroom and PBC card during the pandemic has been lined with obscene mismatches. In Carnera's era, how many of those matchups would've been looked on as "prearranged fixes" based on how little effort some of those opponents gave before falling down?

I believe Luis Ortiz's last opponent, who fell in the first after doing nothing a couple months ago, had his purse held up because he gave no effort. Was that a fix? No. It was determined he didn't try hard enough. If he was fighting Carnera, to the Carnera detractors, that's a fixed fight.

But all we do is say, "That guy didn't even try. I hope so-and-so fights someone better next time."

I'm thankful we're seeing more Carnera fights. He has a lot of KOs. And, honestly, I have not seen a Carnera KO yet that I thought looked like a dive.

But you wouldn't think that the way his people portray him.

Let's see these dives. Where are they? I don't want to read someone's opinion of a dive. I want to see them.

 

The point is no matter how many isolated incidents of guys not doing their best against individual fighters that you dig up, none of them will change the fact that Carnera's career was largely based and promoted on fixed fights.Far from30,000 people always watching Carnera,after the outcry from some of his more obvious tank jobs ,his brains trust took him on a tour of the sticks,away from the more sophisticated audiences. Plenty of boxers from overseas practised their trade in the US during the 20's and 30's. Here are some just gleaned from end of year ratings,and only from heavy to light.
Spalla
Firpo
Rojas
Weinert
Uzcudun
Persson
Dekuh
DeMave
Hansen
Heeney
Campolo
Cook
Schmeling
Von Porat
Neusel
Lenhart
Frattini
Till
De Vos
Shekels
Vincintin
Loayza
McGraw
Tenorio
Hueser
Seelig
Candel
Tunero
Van Klaveren
Montanez
Spoldi
How come they weren't discriminated against?
Several times in that period there were up to 3 ranked heavies from overseas in the top ten,any of them get bad press because of their nationality?
You've found a few incidents of fighters exhibiting no ambition and taking the easy way out.Now find incidents in which purses were withheld and licences withdrawn, as they were in the case of some of Carnera's opponents.

 

We have the primary sources of Broadway Billy Duffy,Luis Sorisi,Jack Sharkey whose manager and Wife accused him of laying down to Carnera.Paul Gallico,who witnessed many of Carnera's fights from the early days in France, right up to his title winning fight and beyond.We have opponents such as Gains saying Carnera could not punch his weight yet he has a huge list of ko's.We have Louis stating," he had nothing",We have Tunney stating," he falls apart when he is tagged on the chin".
Reg Gutteridge whose Father and Uncle seconded and trained Carnera in his Uk fights and we have Primo Carnera discussing the Harder They Fall book and stating "it is all true but worse". But as I said ,you believe what you want to, I won't lose any sleep over it

 

And we know David Haye told his friends to bet on a third round stoppage of Audley Harrison before their title fight in which Haye won by third round stoppage. And we know the Board of Control held a hearing to decide whether to not pay Harrison for his "lack of effort" ...

And we know Bruce Seldon fell down face first against Mike Tyson after getting hit in the "hair" and getting stopped in one round in their title fight ...

And we know George Foreman opponents fell down without getting punched at all ... and Foreman said it happened all the time ...

And we know Avila looked at his corner (and the commentators even mentioned it) before the very next punch from Joshua "put him down" for the count - before he immediately stood up and did the classic complaining of "Why did you stop it."

And nobody says Haye or Tyson or Foreman or Joshua's team "prearranged" their wins. Your examples are NOTHING we haven't seen a hundred times and the winners of those fights aren't accused of anything while their opponents are labeled "Fraudley" and everything else.

With Carnera, he's the villain. With everyone else, the guy who went down is the villain.

Let's see the "Dives." Because I can post a load of dives by all kinds of fighters and you never hear the winner, like a Tyson, getting blamed for people falling over against him.

 

Fighters purses are held all the time. Ortiz's last opponent's purse was held up. That happened two months ago. Are you accusing Ortiz of calling his opponent and arranging a fix? If not, why not? You would cite it as exihibit A if Flores fell down against Carnera.

https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_...ithheld-csac-reviews-knockout-loss-luis-ortiz

Do you accuse David Haye of calling Audley Harrison and fixing their title fight, because if Carnera had told all his friends to bet on a third round stoppage and Carnera's fight was stopped in the third and his opponent's purse was held until the Board had a hearing ... I think you'd cite that as an example of a Carnera fix, too.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-faces-fine-probe-launched-betting-claim.html

How many of Mike Tyson's opponents just "fell over?" Mark Young, Bruce Seldon. Orlin Norris ... Peter McNeeley's manager had his portion of McNeeley's purse held up until he was investigated for prematurely throwing in the towel. Didn't Julius France sell advertisements on the bottoms of his shoes ... because he knew he was going down?

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The LA Times quoted Bob Arum, when people said the Tyson-Seldon fight was fixed:


“The fix was in, but not that kind of fix,” Arum explained. “King fixed it, all right, but by manipulating the ratings and rulings so that Bruce Seldon became champion by just standing there like a guy waiting for a bus.

"That’s how the fight was fixed!” Arum said. “You don’t have to pay Seldon to take a dive. He makes a career of going down without being hit. He went down without being hit against Riddick Bowe and to some extent against Oliver McCall.”

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-09-15-sp-44299-story.html

 

And the "fixed" fights of the 1930s would be this era's weekly Matchroom card with prospect vs. hopeless underdog who puts his gloves over his face and falls down after a round or two.

 

"any ot them get bad press because of their nationality?"

I think Schmeling did.

"How come they weren't discriminated against?"

Schmeling lost his title on a dubious decision and wasn't given an immediate rematch. Many of the others were only journeymen or rarely fought in the US.

 

A question I'd raise is Carnera lost in 1930 to Jim Maloney. In 1931 to Jack Sharkey. And in 1932 to Larry Gains and Stanley Poreda. Why fix fights with journeymen and setups and then allow an honest fight with better opponents? If he couldn't really fight, why even risk his box office by putting him in against these men?

Also between 1930 and 1933 Carnera beat some name fighters. Which ones of these fights were fixed?

Maloney, Uzcudun (2), Levinsky (2), Campolo, McCorkindale, Lasky, Schaaf, Sharkey, Loughran

These after all are the fights which got him to the championship, not the record padding fights against second or third stringers.

 

A thought just occurred to me.

I hope Adam Pollack considers doing one of his "In the ring" series about Carnera. I would really like to know what a cross section of the press thought while he was an active fighter.

Carnera is so controversial an Adam treatment of his career would be most worthwhile.

 

Haye' quote is totally irrelevant no matter how many isolated incidents you produce .
NONE WILL CHANGE THE FACT THAT CARNERA'S CAREER WAS LARGELY ORCHESTRATED ON FIXED FIGHTS. THAT IS THE WHOLE CRUX OF OUR DISAGREEMENT IF YOU CANNOT GRASP THAT AND REALISE OTHER INCIDENTS WILL NEVER ALTER THAT FACT THEN YOU NEED TREATMENT! NB NOWHERE IN THIS THREAD WILL YOU FIND ME PLACING THE BLAME FOR HIS FIXED FIGHTS ON CARNERA.

 

Nope, Schmeling initially got good press in the US, he only began to experience negative press when the extent of Hitler's anti Jewish measures became known, it was a reaction against Nazism not against Germans per se.
Nope, all those were ranked in the Ring's top ten at the end of the year,and I'm confident there are plenty more to be found if access to the years ratings was available. Schmeling lost his title on a decison are you suggesting the referee [GunBoat Smith ], and one judge were biased/bought?
Schmeling was also the beneficiary of a dubious DSQ win which gained him a German , the Heavyweight title at the expense of an American in the US.The only time the heavyweight title has changed hands on a foul.Where was the anti German Bias there?
No,sorry that won't wash!

 

No, it wasn't. He fought 104 times. You mentioned, what, four fights, against guys who everyone beat, where someone threw in a towel too soon. Or someone had their pay docked. What about the other 100? Where is the video of all this dives? Every video of Carnera where he wins, the knockout looks legit.

I mentioned more guys who "dove" against Mike Tyson than you did Carnera, and Tyson had half as many fights. And nobody thinks Tyson's career was LARGELY FIXED fights because we can see his knockouts. We see more and more of Carnera's ever year, too, and from all of them I've seen they look fine.

Just repeating the same stuff someone told you, when they were repeating something someone told them, and everything goes back to a line in a newspaper article where it says "someone didn't put up much of fight" ... means nothing 90 years later when we've seen thousands of the same things happen and no one bats an eye.

Who cares if fought his sparring partner (which you felt was so damning). Everyone does now. Who cares if he fought a guy who had his purse revoked for not fighting. SEEN that too many times to count as well. Just two months ago, in fact.

People say Carnera's fights were fixed before they ever see him fight, because someone told them that. It was the same for me. But, over the years, the 'fixes" appear to be what every other heavyweight does today. Maybe matching someone with soft touches on the way up was "scandalous" back then and mismatches going in constituted a "Fix." But mismatches are standard operating procedure now, even in title fights.

Let's see the fixes. Because every time a video of a Carnera win comes out, it isn't on there.

Like I said in my initial post in this thread, every time a new video of a Carnera fight emerges, the knockout looks fine and he looks like any other heavyweight you see and my opinion of him tends to go up ... and all these "rumored" fixes seem less and less legit.

Let's see them.

 

As Terry Leigh Lye and Thomas Myler stated in their books Maloney could not be bought,neither could Loughran.
1st fight Maloney had not been a ranked fighter for 5 years ,he had lost4 of his last 7 fights.
and would lose 8 of his next 12 and retire.
Campolo record is 21-8-1what do you think beating him proves?
Two fights earlier he had lost to Mauro Golusso 11-4-0.
McCorkindale 15-5-2 hadnt won any of his last 3 fights again what level was he?
Lasky was an unproven and unranked 21 year old 18-1-1,and it was a NWS whoop de doo!
Schaaf? Do you really want to count him? He should have been in a hospital bed!
Sharkey I think took a dive , so did his Wife and so did his manager!
Levinsky 39- 14-4 Awesome eh!
He had won his last 2 ,over Slattery169lbs and Sekyra175lbs previous to which he had won 2 of his last 6.
2nd fight he had won 1 of his last 6 fights.