Jake Lamotas stamina?

Correct. My coach said relaxing is the key to efficiency in boxing. You are actually faster, more explosive, and have better endurance when you relax. Your punches are crisper and you aren't as stiff when moving or reacting.

 

Great post.

 

I agree that boxers shouldn’t be pounding pavement hard every day for 10+ miles however I think those are the outliers. It’s incredibly rare to find a fighter other than Marciano who reportedly ran upwards of 10 miles. The average seems to be 3-6 and I think that’s a good number. Sprints should absolutely be incorporated but they shouldn’t be the core of the running program.

Also I want to add that Marciano’s running regimen is likely overexaggerated. Imo his heavy running attributed to his stamina in the ring but his boxing specific work in the gym did more for him. Running lays the foundation but without the sport specific work in the gym then it’s next to useless. Running won’t make you able to throw 100 punches per round but training for that day in and day out will.

Again, sprinting doesn’t really mimic the heart rate scenario as much as you think. Nobody can hold a sprint for 3 minutes with one minute rest for 12 rounds. Longer distance runs at a hard pace (rpe 8) are more similar to the demands of boxing. However I do think sprints should be incorporated into a proper running program for boxers.

Also it wasn’t straw man, I was saying that just because they did it doesn’t it’s right. They had unhealthy habits and likely that carried over to their training in one way or another.

 

You basically just agreed with me so I'm not sure what issue you had with my post.

I Also wasn't suggesting sprinting is a 100% substitute for running. And for the 2nd time i never said people can sprint for the same length of time as a 36 minute boxing match. I mentioned several other cardio activities to do in addition to sprinting such as ladders, swimming, jump rope, suicides, etc.

If You look at boxers like Holmes who had defended his title for an incredible 20 defenses, he wasn't burning himself out doing those long marathons or having brutal ring wars. I would have to find it but there's actually a clip of him joking about becoming a better boxer when he stopped listing to his coaches who kept hounding him to do tons of road work and strength training. He paced himself well in his training and it is reflected in his performances in the ring. Holmes was smooth, relaxed, and you didn't see him gasping for air at the end.

And at the end of the day, like you said, none of these are going to allow you to keep your hands up and punch for 12 rounds. The only way to do that is to actually punch for 12 rounds. Hence why heavybag, mitt work, and sparring are the most important for developing those muscles and endurance. But too much of anything is bad (especially sparring), and you need to pace yourself.

 

I remember Angelo Dundee alluding to running being necessary for leg stamina, not for cardio. He said all his fighters run three miles a day, to condition the legs to go the distance. He said he didn't like them going much more than distance, he was training boxers, not marathon runners.

Makes me think that perhaps the three miles running created a pounding on the leg muscles not mimicked by regular boxing workouts that was indispensable, etc. His purpose seemed to be about having the legs to go the distance, not the cardio. Maybe he knew the cardio came from the boxing workouts.

I am just taking liberties with a statement he made. Maybe he knew running was for the legs, more than for the lungs?

 

Hagler Ali Carter and Frazier all ran long distances in combat boots. Holmes ran adleast 5 miles a day. Marciano was known for long runs. Hell even Leonard ran in combat boots. These are just a tip of the iceberg. These men didnt get tired over 15. Old timers were running in shoes!
Befor the military implemented running shoes they ran everyday in combat boots for decades. The insole is more important than the shoe IMO. Anyway running builds stamina better than anything else

 

Your position is essentially that long distance runs shouldn’t be the core of a cardio program (non sport specific) and mine is that they should be. Ladders are one of the most useless pieces of equipment in the gym.

Also Larry Holmes was one of the most unathletic heavyweight champs of all time. Probably the most unathletic of all the major champs that held the title for at least a significant period of time. Reportedly before the first Spinks fight he was running 6 miles at a 10 minute per mile pace. https://www.google.com/amp/s/vault.si.com/.amp/vault/1985/10/07/a-champ-with-strange-ideas

That’s almost a walk. Holmes probably should have listened to his trainers. There’s absolutely no evidence that distance running within reason combined with strength training burns out fighters. Barbell training done properly has no negative effects on a fighter. Every fighter can benefit from being stronger. It aids in injury prevention.

Holmes’ lack of strong competition leading to grueling fights along with skill did more for his longevity than did avoiding running/strength training.

 

You keep responding to points I never made.

1-Long distance running should definitely not be the bulk of your cardio, if by that you mean at least 50%. You aren't "running" when you box so why would you spend the MAJORITY of your cardio doing an exercise that doesn't target the areas you actually need to box? If you were training for a fight you're telling me you'd spend 50%+ of your time running and then squeeze in bag work, jumping rope, sprinting, pad work into whatever remaining time you have left? Does that even make logical sense?

2-ladders are "useless" and yet Leo Santa Cruz, Anthony Joshua, Errol Spence, and several other boxers use them in every training video I've seen of them before a major fight. Hmm...

3-No one said Holmes was some athletic marvel. That actually proves my point, that him pacing himself and taking a more casual approach for his every day workouts and only increasing the intensity in short spurts periodically is more efficient for having a long successful career without burning yourself out. Show me the fight where Holmes was gasping for air. Show me the boxer with 20 title defenses who did intense marathon running multiple times a week for 50% of their cardio. I'll wait.

4-I did not mention strength training at all in my post, nor did I say anything negative about it.

5-Never said distance running within reason was bad. Are you even reading my posts?

6-Holmes avoided strong competition? That's hilarious. Holmes was an old man fighting boxers nearly half his age. He was a veteran constantly taking on young prime fighters who didn't have a bunch of wear and tear or numerous knockout losses such as Cooney, Cobb, Witherspoon, Williams, Holyfield, Mercer, Tyson, etc. This is by far one of the most bizarre things to criticize him for. Certainly more impressive than a prime young Marciano taking on heavily shopworn guys in their late 30's.

 

I specified non sport specific cardio. Essentially of that time you spend doing non sport specific cardio, the majority of it should be running long distances. Read more carefully.

Again, just because they do it doesn't make it correct. I'll name off a few things I've seen and read fighters doing that are incorrect/sub optimal: Tyson fury using straps while using a mixed grip on deadlifts, Amir Khan using a mixed grip and doing tempo Romanian deadlifts/using a calf raise machine, Terrence crawford doing some sort of vertical jump with a 95 lb barbell in his hands, Mike Tyson using a leg press while quarter squatting 225 in the same workout, etc I don't need to go on.

The weight training prescribed to boxers is totally sub optimal. Why? Because these S&C coaches don't make money off of programming a program with 4 simple lifts with maybe variations or accessories that the fighter can run mostly independent of them. Instead they have them do curls while balancing on their head while sitting on a medicine ball because that includes more equipment. More equipment = more complicated which = better to people who don't know a lick about strength training aka most boxers and their coaches.

I figured you were smart enough to realize without me saying that being athletic is superior to not being athletic. Holmes didn't increase the intensity, you're completely making this up. Holmes literally was running a 10 minute mile pace for 6 miles in the build up to a world title fight. In no circumstance would that be optimal. Even if he were "taking it easy". That's just useless running.

3-6 miles is not intense marathon running. You are being overdramatic. How many boxers can you even name that have 20 successful title defenses. Not to mention Larry Holmes did what you consider to be intense marathon running for 100% of his non boxing specific cardio.

You literally did:

Yes. Are you sure you are?

No. Were you thinking he did?

 

Still disagree. Running long distance is usually a very monotonous task. You are just going in a straight line at a steady pace and aren't challenging your heart and lungs in a dynamic way the way explosive cardio exercises do. Boxing matches are usually long, yes, but there are TONS of breaks. It is primarily an interval/fast twitch sport. The "endurance" is primarily about you being able to remain on your feet for a long time and keep your arms up without tiring out, not simply having a huge gas tank.

Show me an athlete who can run 10 miles but can't keep their arms up for more than 5 rounds and an athlete who can run 5 miles but can hit the heavy bag for 12 rounds straight and as a trainer I would take the latter athlete in a heart beat.

So by which standards are you measuring these boxers success and the correlation their S&C has on their success? because literally all the guys you mentioned, including Amir Khan, have won multiple titles and none of them gas out or are easy to outmuscle (well, except post prison Tyson). So clearly they are doing something right.

That's a whole nother conversation anyway, we were discussing cardio and specifically ladders. I thought you were going to explain why you thought ladders were bad?

Are you incapable of responding without putting words in my mouth? When did I say Holmes' exercises were the most optimal or ideal? All I was saying was that Holmes CLEARLY managed his body well and that's evident by the fact he was in his late 30's and early 40's taking on prime fighters in their 20's (while having the stamina to duke it out in the later rounds).

Being athletic is being better than not being athletic...that goes without saying? There's levels to it with lots of varying degrees between being completely unathletic and being super athletic, it's a spectrum. You were going from one extreme to the other and claiming Holmes "should" have done more intense training like a work horse with the "old school" cardio methods and that doesn't make any sense. Holmes is a top 10, arguably top 5 HW in terms of both resume and h2h. I don't think doing crazy Bruce Jenner jogs would have pushed him into #1 GOAT status.

Well technically I mentioned that Holmes mentioned it in passing. I did not elaborate on that point at all nor did I say strength training in and of itself was a bad thing.

Nor did Holmes actually. The quote I was referencing Holmes was NOT saying strength training was bad, simply that he didn't do it excessively along with road work. Reading comprehension.

Well I know you aren't because I've had to correct you about 4x because you keep putting words in my mouth. I never said long distance running was inherently bad, only that it shouldn't be the main focus of cardio and that too much is bad for boxing and doesn't perfectly correlate to the type of endurance you need for combat sports. I never once said strength training as inherently bad, nor was anyone in this thread really talking about it until you brought it up.

Have you ever done combat sports?

So what did you men by this?

Can you explain what you meant here? I thought you were saying Holmes lacked strong competition.

 

Not really. Just put your headphones on and run. It'll make you stronger mentally. I never run in a straight line. I turn corners, go down side streets, etc just like most other runners. It would still be beneficial to make your cardiovascular system work hard continuously for 30 minutes or an hour as opposed to running a sprint for less than a minute and resting for an equal or greater amount of time. I just don't think you've really thought this through.

Idk any boxers that can run 10 miles but had stamina issues. Dempsey, Fitz, Mayweather, Jeffries, Louis, Greb, Robinson, Hagler, Frazier, etc all ran long distances and had great stamina. No problem holding their hands up.

Klitschko and tons of other modern heavies don't run much and have crap stamina compared to the old heavyweights. Just watch all of Klitschko's fights and you'll say to yourself "damn...these guys are ****".

Strength is only one component of a fight. If everyone is doing something stupid then it doesn't matter. For some reason boxing is light years behind every other sport. Just look at Elie Seckbach's channel when he's with Robert Garcia and co. He has tons of videos on "oh weight training bad!" They're stuck in 1921. If two athletes are equal in most all aspects then the stronger one will win. Simple as that.

Amir Khan has been ktfo by the best he fought. He was never at the top of the sport and is a physically weak man. Note how he can literally only do 95 lbs on Romanian deadlifts. That's like my first warm up weight lmao. I could probably curl his max squat and hes a "world class athlete".

They provide no benefit to boxers or really any high level athlete. If you sit on your ass all day then sure but anything short of bed rest will make you stronger and a better athlete. Use it as a warm up tool but that's about it. It provides no legitimate training benefit. It doesn't make you more coordinated or have better footwork.

Do I have to keep quoting you or are you going to realize that we can read your past posts? I've been saying this entire time that the optimal distance for boxers is roughly 3-6 miles. Some can do more. You said I was putting words in your mouth before and I quoted exactly what you were denying that you said. I'm not going to keep playing this game with you.

Holmes didn't last so long by running 6 miles at a freakin 10 minute mile pace. That's what my problem is with you. You're trying to crack it up that because Holmes refused to run and lift weights he lasted longer. Holmes was able to compete in his 40s because, for the most part, he fought soft competition and was still incredibly skilled. Ray Mercer was a one dimensional fighter with a strong chin and willingness to fight. That's his only win against a contender in his 40s. Every other significant fighter he fought, he lost to. I give him all the credit for going the distance but at the end of the day he lost.

Are you saying that Larry Holmes or any fighter would not benefit from being more athletic? That being slower, weaker, and smaller is somehow beneficial?

I never said old school cardio methods. I said he should have ran faster. A 10 minute mile pace is absolutely pitiful for the distances he was running.

You mentioned strength training then in your next post you mentioned you didn't say it at all.

Clearly you have none.

I've literally been quoting you when you've said "Oh uhhh I didn't say that!!"After you say something dumb.

Absolutely. Boxing and No gi bjj.

Holmes lacked strong competition. YOU claimed that I said he avoided it which I didn't claim at all. Just like you mentioned strength training and later back tracked and tried to say you never mentioned it. Get your story straight before being a disrespectful little runt next time. Ass city cobra...

 

I did think it through. Through trial and error. You are speaking a bunch of theoretical stuff and denying what I'm saying without having tried it which is extremely ignorant.

Yes it would be beneficial to jog/run for 30 minutes for cardiovascular endurance. I am simply saying doing it at several times a week at the highest intensity for weeks on end leading up to a fight is going to be counter productive in the long run. You had no answer for what I said about the damage to joints on hard surfaces.

That isn't what i asked you at all and wasn't the point of the example.

I like how you singled out the weakest link in the boxers i mentioned and zeroed in on him.

Khan was still a 2x champ and moderately successful in multiple divisions. Him getting knocked out has jack **** to do with him not gasping for air after 12 rounds and him not getting rag dolled in clinches.

Yeah gonna have to say you're wrong because my footwork did get better in muy Thai.

You did in fact respond to my posts and say that strength training and barbell training "has no negative effect" on a fighter but I never said those activities by themselves automatically have a negative effect.

Yeah and in the post where I quoted Holmes nowhere did it say strength training or long distance running are bad. You're a goddamn idiot if that's what you gathered from my post.

Even if for the sake of argument that's what you think I wrote, I already clarified my what I meant and you're still harping on about. The only people who do that are simply looking to argue and try to look right in some juvenile peeing contest. I do not think that strength training and long distance running in boxing are inherently bad, but making that the focus or doing it too much is. That's the end of the conversation. I don't care if you get it at this point because a child would have understood it by now.

No that's not what I was saying. Im saying Holmes not killing himself in training camp allowed for him to last longer as an aging athlete. I wasn't saying Holmes' specific regiment was the ideal and everyone should do what he did, just that he is onto something by saying killing yourself with intense workouts and you don't even have a fight scheduled is dumb. Sparring wars 3-4x a week for weeks on end is dumb.

Holmes beat Mercer who was a gold medalist and would go on to give Lennox all he could handle and arguably won. You cannot diminish this win. He gave a prime Holyfield and McCall very tough fights.

There it is again. You are creating a straw man and attacking a position I NEVER took.

You aren't smarter than me. The only one playing games is you. I will cashapp you $20 if you can show me the post where I said a fighter would not benefit from being more athletic. That a fighter being slower weaker and smaller is better. Neither of us had even brought up size. You are talking out of your ass.

I loosely quoted Holmes from memory who said he avoided excessive cardio and strength training. I may be misquoting him but it was something to that effect. Neither me nor Holmes said strength training was bad for a fighter.

But by all means keep creating straw men and attacking them instead of addressing what I wrote if it'll make you feel better.

I can at the very least respond to what people wrote instead of attacking a position they never made.

And you're pretty dumb because I explained what you quoted and instead of just moving on you want to keep trying to get me to trip up like a politician instead of simply accepting my clarification.

Well I've tried what I have suggested and it works. Like I said, I can roll out of bed and spar for multiple rounds or hit the heavybag without breaking a sweat. There is nothing illogical in a boxer doing more boxing related workouts for cardio.

Holmes had great competition and is a top 5 HW. I think following the habits of a guy with 20 defenses makes a lot more sense than boxers who had back problems in their 20's.

You clearly aren't worth respecting and act awfully childish to be demanding respect. You can't take the moral high ground if you are being just as rude and disrespectful. Not how this works.

Little? Runt? I'm 6'1 and 230 lbs of raw manliness. I have an 80' wingspan with size 15 shoes lol.

 

Ali Did !!! Did his road work in Combat boots.... really cool documentary I saw and I forget what fight it was for ,, sorry don't get old .. memory fades ... BUT he was doing his road work in his Combat boots

 

Funny you say Hatton .. He grew up in a pub , worked in a pub . and trained in the basement of Pub growing up.. His parents owned a few .. So in between fights it was Pints of beer and Darts for Hatton and he would ballon up to about 190 !!! And if someone got out of line in the Pub ... then it wasn't Ricky who took care of the problem ... it was his MUM !!! who KO'd a couple patrons in her day .... lol