Prime Razor Ruddock vs Prime Joe Louis

1-Lennox got momentarily buzzed by Vitali. Anyone can get momentarily buzzed. Lennox isn't some titatnium chinned guy anyway lol, his chin could be shaky at times so what does that prove? The fact Vitali couldn't drop an obese washed up Lennox shows his lack of power and lack of finishing ability. There is no getting around this.

2-Of course Vitali is heavy handed. The problem is he is way too stiff and lacks snap. He mostly throws obvious straight punches from long range. 2 things set Vitali back: His lack of real combination punching/snap in his shots, and his lack of killer instinct. Both brothers had this but Vitali was even worse because he punched like an action figure and tensed up. Emmanuel Steward did a good job teaching him the fundamentals and to use his height to his advantage, but the cost was that he couldn't get skilled ranked guys out of there when he hurt them. He didn't have a lot of variety or explosiveness and just threw punches the same way over and over. I wasn't trying to suggest he had zero power at all, but his form worked for him and against him and that's why he didn't produce those highlight reel KO's.

3-This is the last time I'm going to address you on the Briggs fight. Your perception of who hit you harder depends largely on A) your condition and B) your opponent's style. Against Foreman Briggs was in his prime fresh as a a daisy and his opponent was content to just jab his head off. Foreman wasn't throwing a lot of bombs and he was content to outbox him. Lennox won the fight early because he dropped Briggs 3x not allowing him to recover and the ref waived it off. Getting stopped early is WAY less painful than standing their getting bludgeoned and clubbed on for 12 rounds which is what happened against Vitali. Briggs was OLD AS HELL AND SHOT when he fought Vitali and couldn't avoid the blows. Even an average puncher will do some damage to you if he tees off on you constantly for 12 rounds.

4-Who gives a damn if Holyfield and Moorer couldn't stop Bean? Neither of them were huge punchers at HW. Bean was 5'11 and 218 lbs, if someone used an opponent that size as evidence that an old school fighter had great punching power you would laugh at them and you know it. And the funny thing is Vitali teed off on him for 11 rounds and couldn't knock him down either! Notice a pattern....?

5-Of course Tua wasn't a relentless swarmer. That was my point. He was too patient and didn't have the heart to just go for broke.

 

@MarkusFlorez99

6-Yes if you can have a strong neck it can help brace the impact. That is true. Yes if you see shots coming you can roll with them or tense up to reduce the damage. That's precisely why Vitali couldn't stop Briggs, he kept throwing the same obviousy straight punches over and over and even a washed up old Briggs could see many of them coming, he just didn't have the defense or reflexes to get away and took a beating. That only further proves my point that Vitali lacked power and wasn't a KO artist.

Btw, you can't just gain muscle wherever you want it go. Briggs gaining 15 lbs after the Lewis and Foreman bouts doesn't automatically prove it went to his neck. That's now how it works. You are speculating. Show me an interview or article where Briggs said he trained his neck or it got stronger? You do realize that a 38 year old man is going to naturally get heavier compared to his 20 year old self? What proof do you have Briggs lifted to get that much heavier and that it wasn't simply due to him being a middle aged fighter on PED's?

7-Never said Briggs had a glass chin. My point was your logic that simply gaining more muscle and strengthening your neck will improve your punch resistance is only true to an extent. If you have a bad chin you have a bad chin and that will only slightly improve things. Briggs always had a good chin. The fact Vitali couldn't stop him isn't evidence that he suddenly became 5x tougher, it only proves Vitali's lack of KO power because more than a dozen of Vitali's opponents were stopped on their feet or didn't get floored just like Briggs.

8-Vitali being 240 means you can't use the size of his competition as an excuse for why he couldn't stop them. You claimed bigger man are harder to stop and sometimes this is true, but Vitali himself was a huge guy so that advantage cancels itself out. It's not like Vitali was some cruiserweight sized guy attempting to stop 240+ behemoths, Vitali was almost always the bigger guy in the ring even against the heaviest opponents. The fact much smaller men like Louis, Dempsey, and Tyson can topple over men that size with brutal early KO's means it's not an excuse.

9-So do you think Terrel would suddenly be hitting like Wilder and Hearns if he trained with Kronk guys? We bothe know that's false and he was never going to be an elite puncher. That's why he had his annoying style in the first place. The point is two guys can have the same lanky build and even the same trainer and yet one hits harder than the other. Terrel's style has nothing to do with it, he simply didn't hit that hard.

10-I agree, "on average" bigger man will hit harder than smaller men, but boxing, UFC, Karate, etc shows this is not a golden rule. Vitali himself actually throws a ****** wrench in the equation. At 6'7 and 240 with a strong build and great technique, he should have been practically decapitating guys but he wasn't. The MAJORITY of his best opponents remained on their feet despite him having fairly mediocre opposition. So if his weight and technique weren't the issue, the only logical conclusion is he simply lacked power. I don't get why this is so hard to accept. The biggest indicator of punching power is that you can knock guys out and he wasn't. Never in my life have I seen a fighter get propped up so much with people ignoring the elephant in the room.

Freaking Chris Byrd even said Wladmir hit 3x harder than his brother and was dead serious.

11-Usyk is not bigger or stronger than Ali. Usyk in his 30's still comfortably made 205 without killing himself or being dehydrated. By the time Ali was 29 he had to actually cut weight to get down to his ideal range of 215-220 because his frame put on muscle and fat very quickly. Especially from all the long jugging and tree chopping exercises he did. Only the very young version of Ali could have remained at cruiserweight. As for strength, Ali is one of the very few guys that could keep Foreman from simply rag dolling or shoving him he was a beast.

 

You keep changing what're you talking about though. Firstly you asked me to give you names of Carnera's big opponents. Then you said that Carnera isn't as big as Fury and now you're saying that he's not as good as Joshua or Whyte when we're talking about Chisora.

 

1-he got momentarily buzzed ? Well Lewis said the shot almost knocked him spark out to the point where he started clinching for dear life. Which is why Vitali wasn't able to finish him, not that he doesn't have good finishing abilities. Vitali couldn't break out of the hold. I think he clearly said the on stage lol. In addition the fight went 6 rounds because Vitali was stopped on cuts, maybe he could have knocked Lewis out who knows, although we wouldn't beat a Prime Lewis. His chin was shaky from punches he didn't see coming but i dont remember Tua ever rocking him the times he actually did land on Lewis with his left hooks. Actually he landed a monster left hook directly on the chin of Lewis in round 6 exactly 2:01 time, and it did nothing. Lewis never rode the shot of either. Its clear Vitali wasn't a 1 shot KO artist like his brother i never said that. Wlad is a monster puncher and an all time great puncher. but Vitali was a clubber type puncher with good power, not great though as i take a portion of your argument into consideration. And Lewis wasn't in particularly good shape but no way was he obese.

2-Foreman still landed a multitude of right hands flush on briggs. Vitali of course doesn't hit harder than Foreman but damage is one thing. All briggs was focused on was Vitali's pure punching power. And like i said from a previous comment Briggs put on over 30 pounds of Muscle and extra weight can act as an anchor and absorb impact energy that is just pure science. And he did do neck weight training. Yes training help to an extent but Briggs already had a good chin which adds to it https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxAEWMao3hs/maxresdefault.jpg picture of him doing neck training

3- Holyfield wasn't a huge puncher but if i remember correctly he made Ray Mercer take a knee. The same Mercer that ate shots from Lewis and Morrison and was the first fighter to drop Bowe. Did you say 218 ? Thats more massive than most heavyweights from the early to mid 1900s !!!

And that wasn't Tuas style which is why attempting that could have failed miserably. He looks to short hooks to knock fighters out he doesn't go ape mode unless the fighter is hurt. Lewis would have schooled him regardless.

 

i adressed some points in the last post and ill sum up these.
who said the size of his competition ? Oh well technically speaking fighters above 200 on average do have better chins than 185 pounders. But we're talking about his pure power not his power to body ratio. And ive been saying on average this entire time. You've been putting words in my mouth talking about measuring stick or golden rule crap. Himans are all different genetically. I said on average and it is true. And i clearly said Usyk at heavyweight weighing at 217 is bigger than prime Ali. If you think prime Ali was after he came out of prison then ok. And how do you know whats false about terell ? You yourself said someones technique affect their punching power

 

1-So you accept the quote of Lewis saying he was nearly KO'd but you DON'T accept the quote from Lewis where he dismisses Vitali because he was at his worst and old and Vitali was at his best and young? Don't cherry pick quotes.

2-As I said, a left hook and a right hand have a different impact. Tua was too short to land consistently on Lewis. Vitali wasn't and had a mch easier time landing hurtful shots with his height and reach. That's the difference.

3-That's a pretty recent photo of Briggs based on the fact Bowe is near him. He wasn't sporting the grey goatee look when he fought Vitali, he still had those weird blonde dreads. You're also forgetting your chin gradually gets worse with age, not better, especially at 38 when you've already had a long career with many wars. He can strengthen his neck and add weight but ultimately he's ceiling for improving his durability at that age is going to be very low.

Anyway, the facts of the matter are no matter how much stronger Briggs' neck got he was still a washed up fighter and a stationary target with poor defense. He was B level at best in his prime and his only decent wins were miraculous last minute KO over B level Liakhovich and winning a robbery over a 48 year old Foreman. Briggs failed every time he stepped up. He was a big durable guy who could punch but had mediocre skills and poor stamina even in his 20's. The fact Vitali couldn't stop an even older and worse version of briggs is very telling. Vitali failed to drop Purrity, Bean, slow obese Peter, Byrd, basic ass zero defense Arreola, old ass Lewis, etc. IT'S A CONSISTENT PATTERN.

4-You dismiss all of the 6'4+ 220+ old school giants who got clobbered by Louis, Dempsey, etc due to their lack of "modern skill" so yeah, I can say with absolute confidence if a mediocre 5'11 218 guy like Bean was brought up as an example you would dismiss it the same way you are dismissing what I've been saying about Vitali constantly failing to drop even the most basic flat footed opponents. It's not like Bean was some genius elite skilled fighter or something.

5-Yes Holyfield made Mercer take a knee, what is your point? Did he knock him out? It was impressive but Holyfield is a guy who cracks hard enough to get your respect but not enough to knock out most modern sized guys. His stoppages were usually an accumulation of blows. I think a fat Douglas and post Prison Tyson are the only ranked HWs he ever brutally stopped or knocked out for the 10 count. Him failing to stop Bean isn't anything noteworthy, Holyfield almost always failed to stop skilled modern sized guys.

 

You're right, you didn't say it was universal.

Yes on average a heavier guy will have more power than a smaller guy but that is only the average. Yes humans are all vastly different and even scientists DON'T know why some guys hit harder than others despite having similar height and weight. End of discussion.

Terrel would never in a million years be able to hit like Wilder. Ask any trainer who was around back then or who knows about that era and they would laugh at such a claim. Technique is only part of the equation. If Terrel had even remotely that kind of power he'd have more KO's even with his cautious style.

Tim Bradley tried changing his technique and putting weight behind his shots and still couldn't get knockouts. He just doesn't have that spark for some reason.

 

He didn't dismiss Vitali he called him a tough fight in an interview if im not mistaken. He just said he was able to beat him at his worst, albeit cuts but still fair.

Well ok but Tua had a pretty powerful left hook.. you didn't see what that same left hook that Lewia took did to Ruiz ?

And punch resistance getting worse by age isn't always the case. Look at Foreman. He had to pick himself up off the canvas twice against Lyle but was able to withstand a crap ton of combinations from Holyfield in his 40s. Briggs wasn't exactly in wars. He always had a good chin but he has a large strong neck regardless.

But didn't Vitali stop Herbie Hide quicker than Bowe did ? And punched Donald around the ring. Bowe went the distance with donald. Being an elite fighter doesn't make your chin elite. Look at anthony joshua. Duhapas and Wach clearly have far better chins. I dont see your point for that.

But lets get serious. If i remember correctly, before Vitalis shoulder injury against byrd. he stopped 27 opponents including Hide and over the years that injury got worse and worse and that got apparent as he started going the distance sevreal times after this and especially in the chisora fight where he got injured again. If you ask me his punching power was far better in the late 90s and early 2000s. Although still decent in the late 2000s

The question is who has stopped bean besides Klitschko ? Nobody, not even after klitschko beat him. And did he come in at 218 against Klitschko ? I thought it was 230.

And i say world class SHWs back then in those times dont have modern skill like world class SHWs now because they DONT. Look at Buddy Bear on film. Carnera as well. Willard. All of them
For example:

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You can see how uncoordinated and clumsy willard is besides a decent jab (he's the far bigger man so he should be jabbing regardless) he looked bad Especially against a 187 pounder. You can even see how unskilled he was against Jack Johnson. You telling me a world class modern SHW like Luis Ortiz wouldn't spark that ass in 10 seconds ? Even sub par fighters like breazeale or Wach would beat him.

And i agree with your point about Holyfield. He still had good power

 

Well nobody hits like Wilder. Weight shiftinf matters sometimes but a lot of other factors matter, like speed, snap, groundint etc but technique is one of them of course. He wasnt keep on throwin long rang punches and sitting on them like Wilder or Hearns. On average super heavy weights do hit harder than cruiserweights. Not all the time but on average the power gap if significant. A good portion of fighters can rely on their mass to help them produce power like breazeale while other like wilder do things differently.

 

But how skilled are these big heavyweights that Carnera fought ?

 

Saying an opponent couldn't bet you at your worst isn't a compliment at all. He's saying if he was in shape it would have been even worse for Vitali. Lewis said this in response to someone asking him if he would offer him a rematch and basically suggested it would be pointless since he would be more focused and proved to be the better man despite being old and out of shape.

Of course Tua can crack. But if you're much taller and the short guy just loads up for one big punch you can brace for the impact or roll with the shot. It wasn't like Tua was landing tons of flush hooks multiple times every round. Lewis neutralized him completely.

Foreman's chin did not get better, his defense got better and he learned how to relax. When he was younger his defense was often wide open and didn't respect his opponents. Other than Lyle, he only ever got dropped due to fatigue. That's actually a bad example. Foreman's chin was always solid. Holyfield actually complimented him saying he had one of the best defenses of any opponent.

Briggs was 38 and had been in more than 60 pro fights with 5 losses (2 by stoppage). He had been in wars with Botha, Ibragimov, Mercer, Lewis, and Liakhovich. Not to mention 38 amateur bouts. Briggs had been an active boxer for more than 19 years by the time he fought Vitali. He was VERY shopworn by that point and it showed, he could barely get away from punches and was a stationary plodding target.

Herbie Hide isn't a very durable fighter and got stopped multiple times. Bowe dropped Hide about 6 or 7 times and the only reason it took so long is because Hide had fast feet and good lateral movement while Bowe had no clue how to cut the ring off and just kept following him around or waiting for him to get close. Hide also moved up from cruiserweight which is funny because again, if someone that size was on Joe Louis' or Liston's resume you wouldn't consider it an impressive knockout.

Bean was 5'11 and 218. Yes it's noteworthy that Vitali was the only one to stop him but Bean is a nobody and he didn't face any elite punchers. In fact many of Bean's opponents were guys with losing records.

Never said being elite automatically means you have a good chin, but an elite ranked opponent is by definition harder to beat than a bum even if the bum has a good chin. Vitali never stopped an elite prime boxer and many other punchers did. Therefore he isn't in the conversation as an elite puncher. It's that simple. He has very few actually knockouts or knockdowns outside or journeymen and tomato cans. The vast majority of Vitali's opponents were stopped on their feet without getting dropped or went the distance and most were in their mid to late 30's such as Purrity, Chisora, Arreola, Peter, Briggs, etc.

I wasn't suggesting that Willard was some elite top notch super heavyweight. My point in bringing up Dempsey and Louis is to point out they were giving up 30, 40, even 50 lbs in some cases and still managed to knock guys out so using the excuse that Vitali was facing huge guys that weighed 230+ is not a valid excuse. If he were an elite puncher he should have tore his competitions' heads off considering how many of them just stood there like stiff doors getting hammered on for 10+ rounds. It's not like the majority of Vitali's opponents were elite skilled heavies either lol, many of them were C level at best.

 

Well I agree, but Wilder has something special. My point is no matter how good your technique, speed, timing, weight shifting, and follow through is some guys will just hit harder for some reason. I don't think we'll ever see a guy with a bludgeoning jab like Liston's for a long time, or a cracking hook like Morrison, or a blistering combination puncher like Tyson.

Terrel and Wilder are the same height and weight and yet one hits WAY harder than the other. That's why it's impossible to try and equate power to build/weight. Yes on "average" a much heavier guy can put more weight into his shots, that's common sense. But the truly elite punchers are on another galaxy in terms of being able to get the most out of their shots.

 

Lewis won it on cuts though. Bad cuts but Vitali wasnt dazed on knocked down. It was multiple cuts. Vitali had weak skin. He was up on the score cards when the stoppage happened. He wouldn't beat a prime Lennox Lewis. Vitali in terms of combat was giving Lewis as hard of a fight as Ray Mercer did. And rocked Lewis as well. He also called Vitali the toughest of his opponents. He said both.

Lennox Lewis saw the shot comming from Tua but didn't roll with it, he just took. Like how he saw the shot coming from Vitali and got rocked.

I didn't say Foremans chin got better, but it didn't get worse like you claimed. It has always been solid and stayed solid through his 40s

And your right but those wars weren't particularly dangerousm. And he still maintained a good chin throughout his career. Foreman had been through wars too. Every human is different. People say Ruddock lost his punch resistance fighting Mike Tyson but you have Holmes taking Blows from Oliver Mccall, Holyfield and Mercer even though he'd been through wars in the Late 70s and early to mid 80s. His chin never noticeably got worse after those fights.

Yeah he got knocked out by Bowe, then got knocked out far quicker by Vitali, guy looked like a prey mantis on the floor after Vitali landed on him. The other stoppage happened after this. And like you said Bowe still landed flush numerous times and dropped him multiple times but didn't take him out until round 6. And i wouldn't write Hide off because he wasn't a sub 200 pounder.

Jack Dempsey and other small fighters knocked out SHWs but these SHW back then are nowhere near as skilled as they are now. And the science of boxing has evolved as well. You have small heavyweights like Ali with a Iron Chin then you have giants like David Price with a glass chin. All humans are different but its clear in a General point of view that SHWs on average hit quite a bit harder and have a better chin than the smaller heavyweights from the past. Because with SHWs there is more a lot mass in the punch. And in terms of chin there is more mass for the energy of the punch from a smaller fighter to go through, which is why Shannon Briggs putting on 30 pounds of Muscle could have affected his punch resistance. But like I've been saying weight is only one factor and there is no golden rule, which is why you have examples of 200 pounders hitting harder than 250 pounders.

And you are right to an extent. SHWs in 1900-1940s were tomato cans with extremely limited skill which is why they didn't dominate.

Even mediocre heavyweights today would have a field day with those uncoordinated big buys

 

1-Vitali got badly cut because he had bad defense and Lewis was tagging him all night. You can't blame it solely on him having thin skin because after more than 40 professional fights the Lewis fight is the only one that got stopped on a cut. You're acting like Vitali was like Jerry Quarry or Chuck Wepner constantly bleeding in every other match. I don't think it's a coincidence that Vitali all of a sudden looked bad and got tagged, broken down, and picked apart the first time he fought someone his own size who wasn't a mediocre C level fighter. He stepped up in class against an A level guy who was out of shape and past his prime and was torn to shreds. This suggests to me that other skilled super heavies like Bowe, Fury, or Joshua or even his brother Wladmir would have a field day with Vitali.

Vitali only looked so "dominant" because like 90% of his resume are C level flat footed stiff muscle heads or obese plodders with poor defense that barely threw anything back at him. What do you think happens if you take literally anyone on a top 10 HW all time list and have them face those guys?

2-Yes he saw Tua's shots coming. That's why he didn't get badly hurt. And Tua didn't land enough of them. Frazier was able to drop Ali because he consistently applied pressure all night. Tua should have learned from that fight. He just loads up for one big hit and expects everyone to go down.

3-I didn't say Foreman's chin got worse. What is it with people misquoting me? I said generally speaking your chin doesn't get better with age and oftentimes it does get worse, especially after a very long career taking many punches. Briggs may or may not have had the same punch resistance he had when he fought in his 20's but I highly doubt he suddenly got way better after 60 fights+35 amateur bouts, a 19 year career and being 38 years old. You are coming up with very weird leaps of logic because you know it looks bad for Vitali to pound on him for 12 rounds without dropping him. It's not about Briggs, it's about the fact this is a consistent pattern with Vitali and many of his opponents where he somehow is unable to drop them after landing bomb after bomb. Do you think wheezing 38 year old Briggs sticks around if he rematches Lewis or fights Tyson, Foreman, Wladmir, etc? Go ahead and make a poll and see what people think.

4-Holmes was not sitting there taking bombs from Mercer, did you watch the fight? He put himself in the corner and was slipping a lot of shots. He made him look like a fool and outboxed him. Holyfield could crack but he wasn't an elite puncher and he wasn't just landing at will and landing tons of bombs on Holmes either, Holmes was being very cagey and smart. He always fought smart and rarely got nailed hard except a brief moment against Witherspoon, a moment of carelessness against Shavers/Snipes, and when he was coming off a layoff and 2 losses against Tyson. So of course the older Holmes got, the smarter and more experienced he got and was able to keep up with the 90's guys. He wasn't jsut standing there trading punches or getting pounded on.

5-I'm not writing Hide off, I'm saying he's a cruiserweight and not a very durable guy who got stopped 4x and dropped in other fights as well. Prime Hide was low B level at best with decent athleticism, power, and speed, bur he really lacked durability. It's an ok knockout for Vitali but nothing to go crazy over. And like I said, Bowe was a sloppy finisher and didn't know how to cut the ring off. That's why an old Tony Tubbs and Biggs were able to use lateral movement against him even after he tagged him because he had slow feet. Vitali had good lateral movement and better timing. They both got the KO so harping on about this point is silly because boxing has many examples of fighter A scoring a KO faster than fighter B. It's a flawed ABC logic comparison and it isn't like Vitali and Bowe have a dozen common opponents where Vitali consistently does better.

6-Ok even if I play devil's advocate that Briggs punch resistance got better adding muscle, his defense didn't, it got worse. He had ZERO defense in the Vitali fight. No head movement, his stamina still sucked, still couldn't use his feet to get away, still had poor reflexes, and was still way past his prime at 38. There is simply no excuse why Vitali couldn't at least drop a guy like that once. I've already explained why and it's because he has no VARIETY to his punches and just throws the same straight shots over and over and he simply isn't an elite puncher. He's a strong, heavy handed volume puncher with good technique but was not a good finisher and certainly not an elite puncher. He threw a lot of arm punches and could be very stiff with little snap. There are just too many opponents just like Briggs who get nailed by Vitali and don't go down to put him in that category of elite puncher regardless of if you think their extra weight helped them.

Like I said, it's not like Purrity, Peter, Chisora, Arreola, etc are some sort of elite super skilled guys they were C level at best in terms of technique. Do you see any coaches today telling their students to study tapes of Vitali's opposition? Lol. You are lumping all of today's modern SHW's into one big category as if they are all supremely skilled to say they were way better than Baer, Willard, Carnera, etc but the reality is many of the guys Vitali and Wladmir were destroying aren't that much better than them honestly.

 

Vitali didn't necessarily have bad defense, Lewis himself said Vitali was awkward to fight because he leaned back to avoid shots and was a smart fighter. His skin wasn't strong enough to withstand the power of Lennox Lewis. This is why despite having 3 large gashes, he was still up on the score cards. He was actually beating Lewis on points before the stoppage and somewhat held his own against Lewis's agression. He didn't get picked apart or broken down like he was getting outclassed. 3 giant cuts in a different part of the face dont just happen even in a one sided beatdown which this fight was not. He didn't have any broken bones either. His skin may not be necessarily weak but that points to the fact that his skin just wasn't durable enough to withstand a multitude of attacks from Lewis.

Yeah your right his resume isn't good and i agree but he put up an good performance against Lewis and has a win over Corrie Sanders and Dereck Chisora while he was well past his prime. And he'd still destroy fighters like Buddy Bear, Carnera, Willard, and other early 20th century SHWs with incredible ease.

John Ruiz also saw the left hook coming. It helps as he mentally braced for it and took it but the same with Vitalis right straight. He saw it. And Fraizer has faster feet than Tua thats why he was able to close the distance.

We both misqouted eachother. I never said Foremans chin got better and you never said it got worse. And yes generally speaking it gets worse but we're not sure its the same for briggs as he never got dropped when he was past his prime. Ive said that his punch resistance possibly could have actually gotten better due to him adding a lot more mass and that mass absorbing the energy of the punches. He bulked up A LOT Thats just the science of it. And Mercer still landed flush a lot of times. What im saying is although he outboxed Mercer, his chin didn't decline at least noticeably anyway.

Hide is a small heavyweight but he went in the Vitali and Bowe fight at heavyweight and when he fought Bowe he was 214, 6'2. he'd actually be a pretty normal sized one if we compare him to early 80s, 70s and 60s heavyweights. Bowe landed cleanly lots and punched him around but Vitali did it less and knocked him out bad. ABC logic ? Ok. Im just Trying to find opponents that Vitali and other relatively good punches had in common before the shoulder injury. That definitely affected his power

Im not calling him an elite puncher. I said he was a good heavyhanded puncher in 2 previous posts