Sonny Liston vs Ken Norton, both prime, 15 rounds.

Well, forgive me for finding humour in your adamance that Shavers had beaten large men of quality. Especially when you're citing one man who'd never win a fight again, and hadn't won one in over a year before fighting Shavers, and a man who'd fought four times in seven years, and had only won half of those. Then of course, you name two fighters who at the time were inarguably at poor points in their career, who were both under 200lbs. The time and place of these wins makes them not of quality, and their weights make them small heavyweights. Meaning your original point is entirely false.

It's all a pretty funny joke.

 

sometimes the loss with shavers can have something to do with a guy not winning again.

The guys I mentioned that Shavers put down were Holmes, Norton, Bugner, Clark, Ellis and Young. I guess you refer to Joe Bugner as the one who fought just four times in seven years? Well Bugner had just fought competative exhibitions with Gerry Cooney ahead of the recent Holmes Cooney fight when those two represented two of the biggest fighters of that time. And right after losing to Shavers Joe went on a five fight win streak. In fact after losing to shavers Bugner had another 16 wins beating guys like Page, Bey, bonecrusher and Tillis. Bugner made a lot of comebacks. He was a pretty remarkable fighter. And big.

Ellis was at a poor point of his career? Ellis was on a 8 fight win streak when shavers flattened him. Until then Ellis had only lost to Ali and Frazier as a heavyweight.

The weights of Ellis and Young make them bigger men than 189lb Patterson and 195 Roy Harris. Bigger too than Eddie Machen and Zora Foley come to think of it. Bugner was 245. Norton was 225. Clark was 222. Norton Clark and Bugner were inarguably big guys. Yes or no?

 

Liston takes this.
Probably early.

 

For defending myself against a homophobic remark from a clueless poster?

 

1. I wasn't questioning Shavers' power you moron. I think he's the hardest puncher in heavyweight history (with the possible exception of Baer. I was questioning his ability to put that power to use at the top level. Chok said he beat many talented big men which simply isn't true.

2. **** off.

 

I.... I honestly don't even know where to start with this.

1. We know he flattened Norton. That's kind of one of the main reasons people are skeptical of Norton's chances against a power puncher at the elite level. I am perplexed as to why you thought bringing this up, would help your cause.

2. Larry won 22 out of 23 rounds against Shavers. He was dropped once, got up, recovered and proceeded to kick Shavers ass and stop him 4 rounds later.

3. Joe Bugner was stopped by a cut. I'd hardly call that flattened. He was also 32 years old, and had fought less than 18 minutes in 5 years, and was 25 pounds above his prime weight.

4. Henry Clark was coming off a draw to Jimmy Richards (who?) prior to facing Shavers 2X. Despite being at the tail end of his career, and never picking up a win again took Shavers the distance in their first bout

4. Jimmy Young had 11 pro bouts when he fought Shavers the first time, and unwisely tried trading blows with him, as he hadn't yet developed his crafty unorthodox style that suited him well against punchers. Oh and he was also not even 200 lbs so I'd hardly qualify that as big.

5. Jimmy Ellis: lol

 

we can go back and forth in all of these points. Round and round again in circles. After picking Sonny as the firm favourite all I am saying is that there is some evidence, not strong evidence, that Norton can be more competitive with Liston than he was against Shavers. Can. That’s all. Can.

I base this on the Larry Holmes fight Ken had.
It depends if Ken gets intimidated or not.

 

Pardon?

 

I did not see any homophobic remark pardon- None the less you are a classless jerk most of the time.

 

I would say despite the outcome in he Lyle fight it showed he could overcome a big durable fighter in the right scenario- But i agree In regards to wins he is surely lacking against talented big men.

 

If William Walker is 18 years old, I'm a Dutchman. It's his little joke. He's been on about a friend of his in his mid 50s who he watches fights with recently, there was the go kart smash in Florida that I recall which just didn't chime. I have often felt he was pulling a few plonkers about his age.

 

Really? I always found Will's vocabulary to match that of an 18 year old's as well as his maturity level (no offense intended) as opposed to the grown men here.

 

Over 200 pounds is over 200 pounds. 10 pounds is under 200 pounds. 199 3/4 pounds is under 200 pounds. You classed these as big men who could fight. These two were not big men.

Bugner was 20 or more pounds overweight. I shudder to think what Liston would have done to him but I'm sure you will attempt to work a transparent angle while telling us not to count Joe out.

 

I thought we were to the point where you credited Liston completely for his overall demolition of Patterson.

Trying to discredit Liston's demolition of Patterson not once, but twice by fobbing it off as Patterson not performing at all is a really really bad look.

There is far far far more chance Norton is intimidated but even if he wasn't Liston's style and assets are going to drop the hammer on him. I see this as a pretty predictable fight as far as the fantasy ones go. Norton's physique/muscles and performance against two top level boxer types who had good but far from great power aren't going to blur the lines me.

By all means however keep trying to throw a spanner in the works of any and every Liston fantasy fight. Get those licks in.