Ranking Tony Canzoneri's Greatest Performances, By Film ONLY

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by William Walker, Mar 4, 2021.


  1. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I know this one's been a long time coming since I posted my summary on Canzoneri, what-two or three weeks ago?

    There are little criteria for this. As the title says, I'm only ranking his performances by the ones we have on film, and I'm only going off of the video provided. Lastly, I do not necessarily view a win as more significant than a loss, so don't be surprised if I place some losses above some wins. Here goes:

    7. Frankie Klick II-Although the film obstructed the view somewhat, I just didn't think Canzoneri looked too sharp here. I do recall seeing a great counter right hand early on, but beyond that I wasn't satisfied. Canzoneri looked ordinary against a guy who's claim to fame was nothing more than a single 7-round TKO over Kid Chocolate. Now, that's a mighty big win, but I gave Klick's record a good look, and this was the only win I could find that meant anything to me. So the fact that Klick appears no better than a journeyman is why I rank this below the Petrolle fight, since Petrolle was at least a big name.
    6. Billy Petrolle II-Albeit, this was a 15-rounder and only 12 mins. of it exist, the 12 mins. we got to see of Canzoneri were not to glamorous either. I rank it higher cuz Petrolle was a big name back then.
    5. Barney Ross II-Sure, this a loss, the previous two are wins. But what is better? A win over unheard-of Frankie Klick, or a split decision loss to Barney Ross? Imo, the latter.
    4. Lou Ambers I-This fight has already faded in my memory some, but I remember Canzoneri putting up a sufficient performance. The fight was not all too exciting, but Canzoneri did drop the great Lou Ambers twice in the second round and give him a boxing lesson for the next 13 rounds.
    3. Jimmy McLarnin I-I struggled whether or not to put this one before or after the Ambers fight, or even the Ross fight, for that matter. After all, McLarnin was nearing the end, and must have been zapped from his back-to-back encounters with Barney Ross. Still, it's a fine win over one of the best of the era, a dominant win actually. Canzoneri showed tenacity surviving the 1st, and dropping McLarnin in the 2nd.
    2. Jackie "Kid" Berg-It's hard to shake off how I felt when I watched this one. I had never watched Canz before and this was a terrific performance. I don't hold Berg in as high of a regard as some of the other names on this list, that is, 3-5. Everything about Canzoneri was impeccable here. Great defense, great footwork, terrific jab, blinding speed, and good power. He displayed just about every skill you could think of in the 1st, lets the guy have the 2nd, and then simply KOs him with a perfect counterpunch in the 3rd. It's so ridiculous it's stupid.
    1. Kid Chocolate-Part of this is my bias for this fight earning it the top slot. But for me, Chocolate was the best of these fighters. Canzoneri outgunned him in a timeless brawl, as well as showing a lot of great boxing ability in the middle frames. The one reason I felt bad about giving it 1st place was that Chocolate was a featherweight fighting a lightweight and future welterweight whereas all of these other guys were fighting Canz at his weight.

    So how would you guys go about ranking them?
     
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  2. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Although I would have loved to see some more of Canzoneri, like his fights with Singer and Mandell, his 2nd match with Chocolate, his 1st with Canzoneri, and his 2nd fights with McLarnin and Ambers, as well as his 3rd with Ambers, I feel like we mostly got to see the best of Canzoneri on film. I mean, Chocolate, McLarnin, Ambers, and Ross. Pretty good.
     
  3. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    I don't strongly disagree with the order but I do with the sentiment that 'Kid Chocolate was the best of these fighters'. I just don't see how that statement can be justified when you're comparing him with Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Jimmy McClarnin and even Jack Berg (who beat Chocolate twice). Care to explain?
     
  4. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Actually, I find the McLarnin win extremely impressive, given Canzoneri was also past prime and the microphone incident that happened to him beforehand.

    In my opinion, his best filmed performance is against Berg. A total dominant KO over a great fighter who had beaten him beforehand. The film quality is also very good. The Chocolate bout is one of my favourites but the quality isn't high enough, which is shame as a 'HQ' version of it does exist, just not released in full.

    Also, Klick was definitely better than just a 'journeyman', considering he had the Jr LW title.
     
  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Very good, I would put the ironed chined Ross a tad higher.
     
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  6. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I think the Berg rematch, Ambers, and McLarnin are his best performances. Although that's not to say the others were bad. The Ross fight was really, really close.

    I wouldn't call Chocolate the best here. Actually, I'd say he was closer to the worst than the best.
     
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  7. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    the worst?
     
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  8. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    who did Klick beat for that? I never saw it on the record
     
  9. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Not the worst, but definitely below four of them. Maybe five.
     
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  10. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    why do you have it so low?
     
  11. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Not the fight or the performance, Chocolate himself. I think he's pretty clearly worse than Ross, McLarnin, Ambers and Berg.
     
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  12. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Okay, why do you think that?
     
  13. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Chocolate fought 152 times over 11 years. Ambers fought 106 times, Ross 81, McLarnin 69, but Berg did have a record of 192 bouts. Chocolate was undefeated in his first 56 bouts. Ambers-38, McLarnin-24, Berg-20, and Ross 11. Let's look at the names on each man's record:

    Kid Chocolate:
    Fidel LaBarba (2x)
    Al Singer
    Benny Bass

    Barney Ross:
    Battling Battalino
    Tony Canzoneri (2x)
    Billy Petrolle (2x)
    Frankie Klick (1x)
    Jimmy McLarnin (2x)
    Ceferino Garcia (3x)
    Izzy Jannazzo

    Jimmy McLarnin:
    Fidel LaBarba
    Sammy Mandell (2x)
    Al Singer
    Billy Petrolle (2x)
    Benny Leonard
    Barney Ross
    Tony Canzoneri
    Lou Ambers

    Lou Ambers:
    Cocoa Kid
    Fritzie Zivic
    Frankie Klick
    Baby Arizmendi (2x)
    Tony Canzoneri (2x)
    Pedro Montanez
    Henry Armstrong

    Jackie Berg:
    Tony Canzoneri
    Kid Chocolate (2x)
    Billy Petrolle

    While the middle three clearly have the best wins, that could partially be due to not having fought so many times. Really though, I thought the Chocolate win was most significant, based on preference really. I do think KC was the most skillful of the bunch, not the most accomplished. I still don't see what you guys see in Berg, and especially Klick, whose only win was over Chocolate.
     
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  14. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I would go with McLarnin because he was so much bigger as Canzoneri's best effort. Chocolate is the most entertaining fight.

    On Canzoneri--veteran writers from his era scored him on two issues. One was I guess ego. He tried to outbox a boxer and outslug a slugger, when the opposite tactics would have worked better. Second was that he often fought down to the level of his competition. He looked great against great opposition and often mediocre against second-raters.

    How true these criticisms were, I can't say, but they were out there.
     
  15. KasimirKid

    KasimirKid Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I don't see favoring Chocolate over Canzoneri, Berg, and Ross. He was classy looking, but he failed in the two biggest tests of his career . True, he won the junior lightweight title, but was unable to win the more prestigious featherweight and lightweight titles in each of his attempts. How you can rate him above Canzoneri and Berg when he lost twice to both of them head to head is beyond me. You talk about his 152 fights over 11 years. What about Canzoneri's 171 fights over 14 years, Berg's 192 fights over 21 years?
    This I second.
     
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