Top 10 PFP ever?

That's all cool. But they're not ranking him top ten ever, above guys like Gans, McFarland, Ross or Canzoneri. They're ranking him as the best bantamweight ever, which is perfectly reasonable. They're very different things.

No. Because it isn't due to head-to-head, it's due to Harada beating better fighters than Jofre did, even if he never beat Jofre. And then, he actually did beat Jofre twice. Harada wasn't just better head-to-head, he was flatout better. And he proved it.

It can do, if you want it to. Jofre may not have been getting KOed, but he also wasn't fighting the level of guys that Olivares was. At bantamweight or featherweight. Not even close.

Maybe so, but Jofre didn't have to beat a prime all-time great to win it. Olivares would've had to beat Arguello or Marcel for it, and no bantamweight does that.

You absolutely can, nobody's rating Barkley above Hearns.

Medel was excellent. But he doesn't make you a top ten pound for pound fighter when he makes up two thirds of your notable wins. Caraballo and Caldwell are good fighters. I'm not doubting that. But they aren't a skid up the arse crack of some of McFarland's mid-tier wins. Having to name them illustrates my issue with Jofre's résumé.

Of course it's very impressive. It's just not top ten - or thirty - pound for pound, impressive IMO. Because of his extreme lack of great wins.

 

Medel 2x
Legra
Saldivar

He has no other wins which jump out as top ten P4P material. And even then, Saldivar was pretty old and so was Legra.

 

He was older than them. Almost a decade older in Legras case.

Like I said, I think you gotta look at the context of a lot of the fights. You don’t get universal acclaim as the p4p #1 in a great era and those references I sided if you aren’t special. Who did Jofre miss out on fighting and who’s fault was it? He missed Becerra, but we know why. Sometimes dominance, consistency, and longevity, and perfection has to be rewarded.

 

Hmmmm my list changes all the time but here we go no particular order
Greb
Pep
Charles
Robinson
Mayweather
Louis
Ali
Archie
Duran
Marciano
Might get some heat for leaving off Langford have my own reasons. Marciano on a p4p basis. Not accomplishment. I don’t think anyone was close to better in that 180-190 range.

 

He might have been way older, but that doesn't make them prime either. Him being an even further past prime fighter doesn't make Saldivar prime again, nor does it Legra - who's better days weren't far behind him, they were about four years before when he fought Fammo, Winstone and Saldivar.

He was special. He was great. He is being rewarded, he's a bonafide all-time great. But he wasn't perfection, because he lost twice to a better, more accomplished fighter. He might not have missed anybody, but that doesn't mean that he's worthy of the top ten. He didn't beat anybody good enough to elevate him there. I'm not saying he ducked anybody and that's why he isn't on the list. He just didn't have hood enough competition to be ranked top ten. You can reward dominance, consistency, and longevity, and 'perfection' in the form of other fighters. Packey McFarland was better in at least three of those aspects, and outshines him and almost anybody else in résumé. Mayweather beat better, and was just as dominant, more consistent with just as good longevity.

There's fighters more deserving than Jofre.

 

Everyone knows Jofre would’ve knocked Harada’s gigantic head off his tiny body if he didn’t start going through a weird case of body dysmorphia in the mid 60s. God knows why he didn’t just move up in weight sooner. Things still turned out alright for him, though.

 

This is more or less my list.

Greb and Langford flip flop depending on the day. I have Armstrong a few rungs lower and Fitz higher. Leonard usually squeaks in for Louis.

 

Nice list

 

I doubt it. The difference between the Jofre who fought Medel to the first Harada fight is marginal.

And with the whole ifs and buts thing, it's very easy to go "if Olivares hadn't gotten brave he'd have out-pointed Arguello" or "if he'd have trained right, he'd have beaten Herrera twice" and so on.

 

1. Sugar Ray
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Willie Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Benny Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Emile Griffith
10. Harry Greb

 

Correct.

 

No order:

Ray Robinson
Ezzard Charles
Willie Pep
Henry Armstrong
Sam Langford
Harry Greb
Roberto Duran
Benny Leonard
Archie Moore
Eder Jofre

 

I think he stops him a few years earlier. He nearly stopped in him fight I. I think people underestimate that Jofre had only fought one fight (which went 7 rounds) in an entire 24 months before Harada and that was at a time he was dying to make weight. He was dying to make weight even for the Medel first fight and it was recommended by doctors to even move up before he’d fought Miranda in 60. But they had a high bantam ranking. It’s hard to give up the undisputed title. They tried to get a fight with Sugar Ramos, but George Parnassus offered the same type of purse he could get for defending his title, and Ramos took other fights. It’s not hard to believe that after two years with just one fight, at the age of 30, after more than half a decade of weight draining, that the guy was burned out.

Katzenelson fought Jofre was gonna retire. So he wanted to cash in on the title. Jofre did want to retire around 1962. So it’s clear he wasn’t at his absolute best in 1965/1966z just as Harada wasn’t when he fought Rose. That same-day weigh-in after years of weight cut with no in between weight is no joke. Its more than likely that the sharpest version of Jofre in his absolute prime with less weight problems and less ring rust has enough to finish Harada. After all, those were close fights where the majority felt Jofre won the first at the time. The likelihood of him finishing a hurt Jofre is strong IMO. After all, Medel did it.

I love Harada, and value his career highly, but he also had a clear-cut loss to Edmundo Esparza, a dominant loss to Al Colter, a clear-cut loss to Rose, in addition to having many more problems with Medel and Caraballo (and at their absolute bests) than Jofre did. I think it’s pretty clear Jofre is the overall greater fighter even acknowledging Harada was robbed with Kingpetch, and Famechon.

 

1.)Harry Greb
2.)Ray Robinson
3)Muhammad Ali
4.)Henry Armstrong
5.)Ezzard Charles
6.)Willie Pep
7.)Roberto Duran
8.)Sam Langford
9.)Benny Leonard
10.)Joe Louis