Deontay Wilder vs Primo Carnera

Cool, but Wilder isn't particulary a fast finisher. Everyone mentions his Breazeale fight but he also fought long and tough fights with Arreola, Szpilka, Duhaupas, Molina and Stiverne... guys Louis would likely knock out much faster.

Wilder has tremendous power, but he also has low workrate, mediocre skills and he's easy to frustrate.

 

Im comparing Primo Carnera to Breazeale because thats literally what he was. A big guy with a low amount of technical skill and literally zero head movement. Szpilka at least has the slickness to avoid Wilders big punch for several rounds. And Molina countered Wilder pretty well for a bum. Styles make fights. Louis would most likely dismantle Wilder but Carnera would stand there throwing his mediocre jab waiting to get KO'd

 

Compare him to Duhaupas then, who standed in front of Wilder all fight long without any head movement.

That's because Wilder isn't anything special... not because Molina is better than Carnera.
I'd expect Wilder to catch Carnera with something big at some point and stop him, but Carnera would likely be winning the fight until the stoppage. For all of mediocrity Carnera showed throughout his fight, I don't find him worse to most fo Wilder's opponents at all...

 

So you're serious. You think Carnera beats Wilder?

The fact Carnera lost to a Baer who was, using YOUR words, "sloppy and lacks technical skill" but had good power means there is a very strong possibility Carnera looses to the similarly sloppy and not technically skilled Wilder. You literally just made my case for me.

Even if Baer hits slightly harder than Wilder, Wilder cleary is a far above average puncher, Carnera has below average defense and endurance and isn't exactly some polished slick fighter to begin with. Really not difficult at all to imagine Wilder doing just as good as Baer, if not better, given his height and reach. Wilder has a good left hook and jab too.

Joe Louis was green, doesn't hit as hard, and styles make fights. Joe took his time throwing out his jab, going to the body, and using crisp combinations to break guys down. Wilder and Baer both swing for the fences and have significantly longer arms and more raw power with a more reckless style.

Foreman is more skilled than Shavers and Shavers took out Norton quicker. The time it took fighter A and fighter B to KO fighter C isn't the best indication of anything.

 

You didn't really answer the question.

You question Wilder's power against the best opposition because he Ko'd mostly B and C level opposition.

Even if the conversation is not about Carnera's power but rather his skill, surely you must think Carnera's opposition is far superior to Wilder to go down this route?

So your trump card is Ernie Schaff who had 12 losses and was 43 lbs lighter than Carnera? This is your example of an elite A class fighter head and shoulders above Wilder's opposition? If people on this forum boasted that Anthony Joshua defeated a man 40 lbs lighter with 12 losses you guys would be laughing and tearing Joshua's resume apart and you know it.

I am not suggesting Wilder has some amazing resume, but you'd have an easier time convincing me that Eskimos hate snow than convincing me Carnera has a "way better" resume than him.

And you cannot compare eras when it comes to "undisputed" in an era with only 1 championship to now where getting all 4 belts is harder than pulling out wisdom teeth. Carnera also had plenty of shady backers and boxing was full of corrupt people moving pieces around on a chess board and gambling when it came to who got a shot and who didn't. So let's not even go there.

 

No, it seems that you have problems with understanding my post. I said that comparing Baer to Wilder doesn't make much sense because they fought much differently.

I'm not making case for anyone and I said that Carnera would likely lose this fight. It's bizzare that everyone on this forum wants to "win" the discussion every single time, it doesn't work that way.

I disagreed with you because you used wrong (in my opinion of course) arguments, not because you came to wrong conclusion.

1. Carnera's endurance and durability were fine. Not good enough to sustain beating from Wilder if it happened, but certainly better than you give him credit for.
2. As I said before - Wilder isn't taller and rangier Baer, they fought differently.
3. I don't see anything good in Wilder's jab or left hook.

1. Louis wasn't green, he was beating the best fighters in the world at that time - already with better wins than anything Wilder achieved in his career.
2. Wilder has usually mediocre or even weak workrate, he usually tries to time his opponent with one big hand. I don't find his style to be more suited to stop bigger and stronger opponent. That's why Wilder took a lot of time to stop bums he faced.

 

Shaff weighed only around 10 lbs than Wilder himself, so this argument is pointless

 

Wilder isn't a fast finisher? He has 20 1st round KO's. He knocked out Stiverne and Liakhovich (both ex champions), Brezeale (ranked #1) and Malik Scott each in the 1st round.

He had a broken hand and a torn bicep in the Arreola fight and still destroyed Arreola faster than a healthy Vitali Klitschko did.

Szpila used tricky movement and angles to survive.

The only thing you said that was correct is that Wilder has a low work rate, but you are wrong that he isn't a good finisher. As soon as he had Ortiz hurt he was all over him and actually did a surprisingly good job throwing shots from different angles to make it hard to slip and block them.

 

What fighters frustrated Wilder out of interest? I'm expecting a fair size list given it's "easy".

 

Fury
Ortiz
Stiverne
Szpilka
Duhaupas
Molina

Not a lot, but Wilder didn't face many threats either...

 

I know what you said. And it's silly.

I am not trying to "win" anything, I have stated nothing but facts.

Carnera was slow, lacked head movement, had a weak chin, and was stumbling all over the place in multiple fights, not just against Baer, so it's moot point to say Baer and Wilder have differences. By YOUR OWN WORDS, Baer is not particularly skilled or graceful and yet hit Carnera at will, so what exactly are you even arguing for...?

There is nothing illogical in me coming to the conclusion

that the equally sloppy Wilder could land at least some potentially fight ending blows given that he is taller than Baer with longer arms, has a better jab, better left hook, and a right hand which is bare minimum close to Baer's in terms of raw power. This really isn't rocket science.

You're acting like Carnera didn't have 14 losses, many against guys far smaller and less powerful than Wilder. He was brutally stopped or KO'd multiple times.

1-Endurance, yes. It was actually quite good for a stiff strongman. Durability? No, it wasn't "fine" it was average at best. You don't retire with 5 KO losses with "fine" durability. Either his chin was below average, his defense was below average, or both. Especially given that he was often far large than like 95% of his opponents.

2-Wtf do you mean Wilder isn't taller and rangier than Baer? Are you high or was this a typo?

3-Wilder literally outboxed Stiverne with little more than his jab for 12 rounds. Nobody wants to give him credit for this tho.

1-He was 21 with only 19 fights. Back then you would barely be considered a prospect with that many fights. Some guys didn't even get a title shot until they had more than 40 fights on their record. Up until Carnera he was still facing guys who had anywhere from 8-28 losses on their record--exactly what you'd expect from a manager moving a young boxer through the division so they can polish their skill.

2-I literally just agreed with you Wilder has a low work rate. He's a super heavyweight version of Ingemar Johanson. It works unless someone has a good chin and good defense and can either apply non stop pressure without getting themselves blasted out or stay on the outside and frustrate him with cagey technique. Carnera would be unable to do either.

 

Two tall sloppy fighters with not a lot of skill between them.

Carnera's best chance despite his size would actually be to maul non stop but that wouldn't happen. Carnera is also going to be a little out of his groove fighting someone so tall and long. He's right there to be hit, chin high and hands often down with quite average defensive and his chin isn't overly strong to boot. On top of this he's certainly no big banger.

Wilder isn't going to have a lot of trouble hitting him and the one thing he has is big power in that right hand if little else. Wilder inside 3 for me. Carnera too open, Wilder too powerful.

 

It only seems pointless because you failed to see why I brought it up...because it wasn't your conversation.

Shaff had 12 losses and Janitor was bigging him up as this elite A level fighter and an example to prove Carnera's resume was far better than Wilder's.

Shaff was also 6'2 and Wilder is 6'7 with a completely different style and taller than Carnera so the fight would not even remotely look the same.

 

You're better than that... let me know how many of these 1st round KO victims were anything relevant at world level.

He didn't stop Stiverne when he was a "champion". He stopped him when he was older and overweighed. Besides, I don't count these paper champions as the champions. What Liakhovich or Stiverne did in their careers to call them champions?

Yeah and that's it, the rest of his 1st round victims were scrubs and bums. Breazeale did nothing in his life to be ranked as the 1st contender in the world either.

Vitali wasn't murderous puncher though, so what's your point?

Yeah and he's significantly worse fighter than the likes of Sharkey or Schaff.

Where did I say that he was a bad finisher? Find me a quote, because I don't remember me saying that.

You didn't even answer to my main points by the way.

 

Can I ask, were the fighters heights from the 1930s not measured? Or is it our records are not accurate.

He is listed as 6'2.5" on boxrec

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