Deontay Wilder vs Primo Carnera

Stop it.

There is no reason to question him as a finisher, especially if you literally just accepted that he is one of the hardest punchers of all time.

Power is power. If Wilder lands that right hand it is going to hurt whomever is on the receiving end of it, period. We are not wondering if Wilder's power will be effective against a slippery defensive target like Jimmy Young or a durable tank like Oliver McCall or a well rounded elite fighter like Holyfield, we are talking about Primo fvcking Carnera, a stiff robotic boxer with poor defense who visited the canvas at least 20x and was knocked out 5x. A man with no head movement, very limited mobility, and poor reflexes and fast twitch muscle. A man who spend 95% of his career bullying men who were as much as 80 lbs lighter than him and rarely fought opponents who were anywhere near his height.

So the question isn't "if" Wilder's power and finishing ability would be effective against Carnera, we know it would. He is not particularly hard to hit even for men as short as 5'11 and who don't have anywhere near the speed or power Wilder has. It is simply a question of when Wilder lands, will he knock him out? Anyone with an IQ over 60 would tell you based on what we know about both fighters, a knockout is both possible and very likely.

So Schaaf with 12 losses was the best version of Schaaf? Is that the hill you are choosing to die on?

This is Marciano vs Walcott logic all over again.

Yes. Fury won an iffy decision over Wladmir in a sleep inducing fight where neither men wanted to really let their hands go. Fury then avoided the rematch and went on a cocaine, beer, and burger binge, becoming inactive for 3 years. He came back in 2018 to beat two D level bums then got a draw against the then reigning champion Wilder after being put on his ass twice and given a very lenient amount of time to recover. Fury then avoided an immediate rematch to fight 2 completely unknown C level guys, one of whom was a cherry pick gone wrong where he nearly got stopped for a horrendous cut and had to get on his bike to win. Fury's only solid win over any heavyweight worth a damn was Wilder himself in the rematch in the span of 5 years since his win over Wladmir. You cannot possibly say Fury was the #1 HW between 2015-2020 until he beat WIlder, and even then you have Joshua to deal with.

In 2015 Wilder beat Stiverne quite easily in his first major step up. As I mentioned he had multiple opponents pop dirty for PEDs through no fault of his own. Joshua was impossible to work with for unification so he continued to beat WBC contenders--clearing 10 title defenses and surpassing many previous belt holders who only defended their belts 1-2x or less. He fought Ortiz twice whom nobody else would get in the ring with despite Ortiz being Joshua's #1 contender who was paid step aside money and then ignored.

Joshua won his first title over Martin in 2016. Martin had only won the title in the first place because Glazkov blew his knee. So Joshua essentially won a trinket title which itself was only available due to Fury's absence. You can't really say Joshua's resume was better until 2017 when he beat Wladmir. Then of course you had the disastrous affair with Ruiz, a cherry pick gone horribly wrong. Ruiz did not have any serious wins prior to this bout.

So between 2015-2017 you can argue Wilder was the #1 HW. You can also argue in 2019 he was #1 due to the fact Ruiz was a 1x champ with no defenses and Wilder had 10.

Wilder beat Stiverne who was a belt holder who was logically top 3 since Fury had the other belts. Ortiz was in the top 3 of multiple sanctioning bodies. Brezeale was #1 in the WBC. Joshua made a million excuses and contradicted himself multiple times on why he couldn't face Wilder. Parker, the WBO champion, declined an offer to fight Wilder. When Ruiz was champion he had to give Joshua an immediate rematch and lost, but had entertained the idea of facing Wilder.

So once again, you are being facetious comparing eras and pretending like Carnera is clearly ahead when he had far fewer obstacles and a little bit of corruption on his side.

Even you do no believe that.

There is no way you typed that with a straight face.

This is comedy and if you insist I will start another thread just for this very subject.

See above. Wilder was not "milking" his belt. He has gone above and beyond to try to make fights with the best. Boxers were so terrified of him they tried to use PEDS and got caught. Povetkin was his mandatory and he was busted for PEDs. Yet Wilder was willing to fight him anyway and the WBC ordered Stiverne to fight Povetkin for an eliminator. Povetkin was busted for PEDs AGAIN, yet morons will blame Wilder for this.

Wilder was supposed to fight Andrzej Wawrzyk but Wawrzy failed a test for anabolic steroids. Wilder needed a last minute opponent and that is why he fought Washington.

https://www.skysports.com/boxing/ne...pponent-after-andrzej-wawrzyk-fails-drug-test

 

Cleveland Williams was one of the hardest punchers of all time, according to the guys on the receiving end.

Power on its own, is worth two buckets of spit!

I would personally tell you that it was possible, but by no means certain.

Does Carnera get to se the second Fury fight?

If he does, then Wilder is toast!

 

Fury beat Wilder very uncontrovertially both times, in my humble opinion.

Ring Magazine ignored the decision in the first fight, and they were eminently justified in doing so!

 

It's a good thing Wilder doesn't rely on power on it's own then.

There are various videos breaking down how Wilder scores some of his KO's. The Brezeale and Ortiz 2 knockouts were not just swinging for the fences affairs, they were actually quite brilliant how he set them up.

In my estimation (along with literally millions of people), Ortiz and Fury are both more durable and more skilled than Carnera. So again, it is not a question of how Wilder's power would translate against skilled/ranked opponents because both Ortiz and Fury were ranked, skilled, and durable fighters and yet both were put on their ass twice.

Now factor in that Carnera, even if you think he can match these two in skill, certainly lacks in defense/head movement/evasiveness etc, lacks durability, and sorely lacks experience against men his own size who can actually box and who have power, and the odds do not look good.

So now Carnera is skilled enough to repeat what Fury did? Is this the hill you are choosing to die on?

You are forgetting Fury is much more durable than Carnera as well, even if you choose to believe Carnera is equally as skilled. That is not even debatable.

 

Let me explain this to you!

Jack Sharkey was the undisputed champion when Carnera beat him.

Tommy Loughran was the #2 contender when Carnera beat him.

Max Baer was the #1 contender, when Carnera willingly defended his title against him.

Joe Louis was the ultimate high risk low reward opponent, when Carnera took him on, as a defeated former champion.

Is the fog starting to lift yet?

 

You asked me if Wilder was ever #1 in the division. I answered that question. Between 2015-2017 Fury went on a coke binge and Joshua had yet to really beat anyone of note other than a green Dillian Whyte and a few decent European level fighters.

No challenger in the history of boxing ever won a 12 round decision over a champion after being put on their ass twice in separate rounds and the champion was never knocked down. I even made a legendary thread about it and not one person on this forum could give me an example.

 

I take it that this fight was lost on you?

Fury worked out the simple truth, that Wilder could not fight backing up.

It didn't mater how hard Wilder hit, because if he could keep him on the back foot, he was helpless!

Carnera was strong enough to do that, if he made the same calculation!

 

No one was disputing the ranking/worthyness of the guys Carnera beat.

I was questioning his overall resume given the glaring factors/stats of said opponents. 3 of his best opponents (such as Loughran, Schaaf, Levinski, etc) were 40-80 lbs lighter than Carnera. Several of them had 20 or more losses on their record. Some of Carnera's "wins" were very dubious decisions, split decisions, or flat out robberies. The Sharkey "knockout" win is controversial and people argue about it more than 100 years after the fact.

This is what I had a problem with:

If Baer and Louis were much better fighters, then they were "step ups" for Carnera. This isn't rocket science. If Joe freaking Louis is ranked #3 and someone like Tony freaking Galento is ranked #1, in that case the #3 guy is CLEARLY a bigger step up in class regardless of rankings in hindsight knowing what we know about how Louis' record turned out.

 

Carnera, who visited the canvas more than 20x, is going to fight on the front foot stepping forward and leave himself open against Wilder?

You and I both know you wouldn't bet 5 cents on Carnera.

Fury did not simply stomp forward swinging for the fences. He used the kronk style and spent more than a year working on the strategy.

No one is disputing Carnera's raw physical strength. What I'm disputing is his chin, which didn't hold up against:

184 lbs 34% KO ratio Luigi Musina

200 lbs 47% KO ratio Leroy Haynes (twice)

202 lbs 24% KO ratio Jack Sharkey

Not to mention floored 10x against Baer and 3x against Louis, who to be fair both hit hard as hell, but the point is, are you really backing a man who was dropped by 3 feather fisted opponent 50 lbs lighter? Does that seem wise on paper to think he could step forward into the danger zone to make Wilder back up without getting brutally KO'd in the process?

 

I am off to bed now.

I look forward to our fight tomorrow.

 

Sleep to this song on repeat.

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You'll beat him easy champ.

 

This fight is available on YT and Godfrey wasn't winning anything before the DQ. It just shows that you prefer repeating false narratives that fit your agenda than talk about reality.

 

Bu the way, Carnera would have around 50 lbs advantage on Wilder - does it mean that it wouldn't be a good win if he won? Why mentioning weight advantage here when Primo would have the sane advantage on Wilder?

 

Enjoying this thread. I agree that Wilder stops Carnera.

But I have a few issues in regards to your comments about Wilder's resume and pointing the finger at Joshua, imho that is the re-writing of history a little.

• Firstly, it fair to say that it's very difficult to argue for a time when Wilder was #1. Following Klitschko's loss to Fury. Fury became the the man of the division. Fury was Ring champion, Klitschko was pushed down to number 1, and Wilder remained at number 2. Then Fury announced his retirement, and Klitschko was seen as the number 1 heavyweight again. Had Wilder fought and beaten Povetkin he would have had an argument - unfortunately it didn't happen. Joshua v Klitschko happened. When Joshua won, he became the man of the division.

Fast forward to the draw between Fury and Wilder, and many placed Fury above Wilder (including The Ring). Regarding when Ruiz Jr. neat Joshua, it depends how you look at it, either Ruiz Jr. became number 1 for six months, or Fury was. I guess you could argue at this point Wilder was joint 1st with Fury until their rematch...actually I have no problem with that. But hey, Wilder being the number 2 Heavyweight was still a great achievement.​

• As for Breazeale being the WBC #1. He never was. That was Dillian Whyte. Dillian Whyte who actually beat Chisora in a title eliminator BEFORE Breazeale fought Molina in what was meant to also be a title eliminator. But then Breazeale's victory was upgraded to Final Eliminator on the sly after the fact. And all hell broke loose.

• Regarding Ortiz, Wilder deserves full credit for facing him in the first fight. But this idea that Joshua ducked Ortiz? Maybe I am missing something, but I am not sure where this idea Joshua ducked him is coming from. Ortiz was WBA mandatory, but he had to wait his turn like everybody else.

They started building the prospect of an Ortiz fight in the run up to Joshua v Molina (Dec 2016), with Ortiz fighting Malik Scott (Nov 2016).

The IBF mandatory was due January 2017 (Joshua was the title holder), and we know how inflexible the IBF are. But it seems they held off while Joshua fought a unification against Klitchko for the WBA in April 2017. Ortiz would then be the next WBA challenger, but he still had to wait until after the IBF mandatory.

So next came the IBF mandatory against Pulev in October 2017. Pulev was injured and Takam replaced him. Note Ortiz was no longer ranked by the IBF when Takam stepped in. And when he was ranked by them, he was actually below Takam.

So finally, Ortiz was next in-line! He was all set to be the WBA mandatory. So what did he do? Well, instead he had decided to go fight Wilder for the WBC strap. In the process he popped-dirty (Nov 2017), missed his shot at the WBC belt and was suspended until March 2018 (potentially a year) by the WBA. Wilder fights the Ghost of Christmas Past (I mean, Stiverne 2), and things moved on without Ortis for a while.

The beginning of 2018, Joshua takes the opportunity to unify the WBO against Parker. And Wilder fights Ortiz.

So next up we had Povetkin (WBA mandatory). Perhaps, it was at this point it could be argued that Joshua was using the WBA to avoid Ortiz? I don't know. Povetkin was a legitimate top fighter. And, I think if you are going to give Wilder a pass for Povetkin being wrongly prevented from fighting Wilder due to changes in the band substance list, then you should do the same for Joshua in regards to Ortiz.

So given all of the above, when was Joshua suppose to have fought Ortiz?

Perhaps a good opportunity was in the very next fight when Joshua's voluntary against Jerrell Miller fell through. That would have been a good time to make Ortiz a big money offer. After all, Ortiz had been continuing to call Joshua out...
And that is exactly what Joshua did. And yet when push came to shove, Ortiz's team turned down 8 million, Joshua switched to Andy Ruiz Jr. and Ortiz instead fought a rematch against Wilder.

• If it's all the same, this has become a very long reply, and I don't think it's useful to go into the he said, she said of why Joshua and Wilder didn't happen. I think Wilder covered that topic in his recent tweets when he was going off on Fury and Mark Breland.

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this view that Wilder was manfully taking on all comers, whilst Joshua was ducking and diving his way to the belts doesn't seem to stand up to much scrutiny.

Regarding Primo Carnera, I think it is fair to say he was ranked highly in the 1930s because of the level of opposition he fought (win or lose)

Wilder still knocks him out though.

 

You ducked my last post and then chose to focus on this.

I am not about to begin another side discussion with you if you can't even finish what you started.