Deontay Wilder vs Primo Carnera

That’s not just any last minute opponent. That’s Vitali Klitschko. A poster boy for your “modern sweet science SHW” argument.

Did Vitali forget now to box beautifully with the subtle nuances of the sweet science because he was called in last minute? Is that how boxing works?

And yes. Vitali did lose. You know who he lost to? Let’s use your words: a “38 year old, fat” champion on his last legs. Who could hardly walk or keep his hands up by the 5th round.

That’s who a young, fresh, supposed Sweet Science extraordinaire Vitali Klitschko lost to.

If you want to argue that Vitali and Lennox excelled in things like power, chin, intangibles, and some boxing skills to boot, Great. But for the love of god, do not paint Carnera as some bumbling oaf while holding these guys up as poster childs for the sweet science.

 

So Vitali did not improve after this match? He looked like this in every fight? He was a young fighter taking on a an all time great and got desperate after suffering a bad cut and was badly hurt. Lennox beating him doesn't mean Vitali sucks, it just means Lennox was THAT good to be able to pull a stoppage out of his ass despite his horrible condition.

You're barking up the wrong tree as I have criticized Vitali repeatedly on this forum but he certainly looks better than an oaf like Carnera. I don't care what era a fighter is from, I judge matchups based on styles first and foremost. I only factor size and era if it'll have a major impact. For instance, Tunney is obviously far more skilled than than Dillian Whyte but it would take a miracle for Tunney to avoid getting steam rolled due to the size difference. Similarly, I can't see Tommy Morrison, even with all his modern training and steroid abuse, being able to go 12 rounds with an endurance machine like Jack Johnson outside of a puncher's chance.

Lennox Lewis is certainly a poster child for the sweet science. He won a gold medal and was one of the most, if not the most skilled big man of all time. You literally cherry picked the worst version of him in his very last fight. Do you want me to post videos of a 38 year old Ali, or Tyson, or Joe Louis for comparison?

Lennox won nearly every round against Tua--the boxer many of you love to compare Rocky to when it's convenient. He demolished Ruddock in 2 rounds as if he were an amateur scrub. He managed to pull off a close win over gold medalist Ray Mercer in a war. He arguably beat Holyfield twice, the man who won the title 4x and often gets named as "the most skilled" in multiple "best I faced" interviews. What does that say about Lennox's skill? Sure Holyfield was a little past his prime but he was one of the most technically sound h2h heavies of all time and Lennox didn't win by simply overpowering him with his size.

Virtually every super heavyweight tries to mimic Lennox and the K bros to a degree because they evolved the division. Literally nobody was trying to emulate Carnera, not even in his own era or afterwards.

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Was Max Baer vs Carnera an example of "old school skills and fundamentals"...? Carnera was in his prime and the champion, quite unlike Lennox when he was fat, old and washed up fighting Vitali.

Both Primo and Baer are walking completely flat footed in straight lines, both arms down, pawing with their jabs, chins up in the air like a Billboard that reads "hit me". Both guys throwing winging right crosses that Stevie Wonder could see coming. Carnera has absolutely no clue how to block except with his face. No head movement or evasive maneuvers whatsoever. The only thing impressive about this fight is Carnera showed tons of guts getting back up over and over and Baer's fearless non stop aggression.

Now before you try to uno reverse card me and claim im cherry picking a bad fight of Carnera's, let's look at the Schaaf fight people in this thread insisted was one of Carnera's best performances against a good opponent. Surely we'll see some brilliant sweet science here, right?

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...no not really. And I even reduced the speed settings to 0.75 so the fighters looked less cartoony and glitchy. Carnera is still fighting with both hands low, plodding, head wide open with chin available, pawing with his jab.

However, with the reduced speed you can see that he actually does know how to feint which surprised me. He could actually set up some decent shots here and there like the one that dropped Schaff--even more impressive that it looked like a heavy jab. He also clinches more instead of simply blocking with his faces. But he still has no clue how to use his reach and fight tall.

But something else I noticed is why Carnera got dropped so often: his legs were in the same line in his basic neutral stance. And he would sometimes cross them up when walking. You should NEVER have your legs in the same line, even amateur teenage boxers and karate fighters know not to do this as it makes it easier for you to lose your balance and get knocked down. This explains so much.

 

Jesus Christ imagine what Lennox Lewis would have done to him. But seriously Look Vitali's awkward eastern European style by means of leaning back and Lewis's style didn't mold well together and add to that Lewis was overweight and took Vitali on 2 weeks notice. Lewis looked far more technically sound against the likes of Rudduck, Tucker, Golota, Tua, Briggs Etc.

Also you have to realize most of Klitschkos opponents were Super Heavyweights not sub 200 pounders as opposed to Carnera. If you put prime Vitali in the cruiserweight division he would slaughter everyone. Not saying Vitali is Joe Louis but he's more skilled than Carnera. Look at his highlights. His awkward style is VERY deceiving. He was a very good world class fighter

 

None of that matters. Vitali started boxing when he was a teenager. Plenty of amateur fighters look good, and have good boxing skills before they even enter the pro scene. Especially ones that end up having great pro careers.

Vitali had been fighting professionally for SEVEN years.
The Lewis fight was not just in the second half of his career, it was in his last third.
In Carnera's 7th year, he had already won the title, defended it twice, and fought Joe Louis. And collected a pile of victories from notable names along the way.
This can't be a real argument.

You can move the goal posts all you want, but it's simple really. Carnera looked no worse a practitioner of the sweet science than Vitali Klitschko. As a matter of fact, he clearly looked better.

Nothing in this paragraph is pertinent.

Absolutely! Go right ahead, they all looked miles better at that age.
Lewis could hardly walk or keep his hands up in round 5. Go on, post footage of Louis vs. Marciano, and let's compare their ability to portray the sweet science.

What does that say about Lewis? That he is one of the greatest ever. It does not say that he is a level above Carnera in terms of displaying the sweet science. If Carnera was a stiff oaf, Lewis was a stiff oaf, who looked like he could tip over from the weight of his own body at any second.

Wilder and Fury mimic Vitali Klitschko?

Carnera sprained his ankle on the first knockdown, stayed in the fight, and won several of the mid rounds with his lateral movement and jab. If a modern SHW did that, you'd be singing hymns in their praise.

That’s a 3 minute highlight clip of the fight that shows the knockdowns. Have you even seen the longer version?

That's one of the most godawful quality filmed fights of that era. Pretending to differentiate a pawing jab between a snapping jab through that Charlie Chaplin slapstick cigar box footage isn’t realistic.
By the way, what's with the whole "pawing jab" trope? Wlad never pawed with his jab? Lewis?

I'm glad you can acknowledge the unavoidable.
But now he can't use his reach and height? Even though three posts ago you said he could only "bully his smaller opponents with his reach?"

Also, Carnera fought more 200+ pound men then any other champion in history. So I don’t think relying on fighting smaller opponents can be said about him.

Joe Louis said that Carnera was a difficult opponent, because it was hard to get past his long arms. Sounds like he knew how to use his reach. Looks like he knew how to use his reach.

One thing the Carnera detractors always avoid is the Uzcudun fight.
As sure as the sun rises in the East, they will always avoid that performance. I'm sure it's an inconvenient watch.

Well then, there goes Mayweather, Whitaker, Maidana, etc etc etc.


I give you credit for a typing a long post. But none of what you said did anything for your argument (in my opinion of course).
The argument being that Carnera completely lacked skill, while modern giants are the epitome of some evolved sweet science.

All one has to to do is watch Lewis vs. Klitschko.

 

I'm not moving any goal posts. Foreman had amateur experience and won gold then had 3 years of professional experience and had been a champion when he had 2 sloppy fights with Ali and Lyle. Shawn Porter had been fighting since he was like 14 and had a wild brawl with Thurman yet against Danny Garcia he pumped out his jab, used lateral movement, had good defense, etc. I can say the same thing for Holyfield who could be one of the most technically sound heavies of all time then he gets dragged into brawls.

It's almost like boxers have days where they look technically sound and moments where they slug it out. There's a thing called "nuance". I noticed you ducked me asking you if Vitali and Lewis fought like that all the time? So deep down you know you're full of it

I'm telling you to stop forming your whole argument with the notion i think anyone fighting in the modern era is superior to anyone in the past. I think Dillian whyte is garbage despite hsi high ranking. We'll see what happens Saturday.

Tyson was gassed after like 2 rounds in 2003. Ali Would drop multiple rounds due to being completely shot in several of his late 70'e fights. Holyfield got knocked out by obese middleweight james Toney. The point is they ALL mostly looked horrible past the age if 36 regardless of style until you get to anomalies like foreman, Wladmir, Walcott, etc. This is common knowledge but you have an agenda so you're digging your heels in.

So spraining your ankle means you cannot raise your arms to block? It prevents you from using any sort of defense, head movement, makes you punch stiff and awkward, etc?

You do realize Carnera looks like that in several fights right?

I've literally seen 15 year old amateurs sparring and golden gloved matches that have better technique than Carnera.

Wladmir had a top 10 if not top 5 jab in HW history. I've seen more than a dozen best HW jab articles and videos and not one of them mentions Carnera even for the honorable mentions sections. Even articles that praise old school jabs like Joe Louis do not mention him.

He uses his reach but he doesn't get the most out if it the way Vitali or Fury or even Wilder does. He often lets the shorter man dictate the range and pace.

Which is another thing I learned in less than a month of training. Even freaking boxing video games remind you to maximize your height and reach advantages.

That doesn't mean much. You tell me who were his top 10 best opponents. I thought I already listed the weights of some of the best names Carnera faced mentioned on this thread and several of them were 40-80 lbs lighter.

Well he was pretty inconsistent with it Because in 3 of the fights I've seen he is horrible at fighting tall.

Louis can say he had a hard time if he wants but it wasn't competitive at all.

So Carnera used a Philly shell like Mayweather? There's an effective way to have both your feet in the same line and then there's an ineffective way. Mayweather was light on his toes and used superb defense, head movement, and lateral movement. Carnera literally just stood there or plodded with both hands down.

Whitaker was a wizard who knew hiw to contort his body, slip punches, and make people look stupid with his foot work.

Both fighters often turned their upper torso to the side with their chin tucked leaving only their shoulder available as a target. Both always had at least one hand up to block or parry and the hand that was held low was used for up jabs, flicker jabs, etc.

Did Mayweather or Whitaker ever get dropped 10x in one fight? Did they ever end up having black eyes or covered in bruises and welts like Baer and Carnera? Are you really about to try and have this conversation?

Carnera would cross his feet when walking and stand straight up with his chin in the air and both hands down. It would be surprisingly if his opponents WEREN'T able to land on him.

Did I say that?

Sure, pick that hill to die on if it helps uou sleep at night.

This is like picking the Ali vs Berbick fight or Frazier vs Cummings and saying "the 70's fighters weren't all that".

You are an intellectually dishonest cherry picker with a nostalgia hard on. I tried to be fair looking at 2 different Carnera fights yet you insist on using literally the worst versions of Lewis and Vitali and then claiming this is proof no super heavyweight fights any better than Carnera. You are either a troll or an idiot if that's what you honestly believe.

 

Rocky would KO Vitali and Carnera in the same night.

 

Knowing him he probably believes that.

 

Believes?
Knows.

 

LMAO

 

It think Wilder steamrolls him. Wilder is like a more athletic Max Baer.

 

Food for thought: The irony here is we actually have evidence of Carnera manhandling several men Rocky's size (under 6 ft and 185 lbs) but we have zero evidence of Rocky beating men even remotely close to Carnera's size (a 37 year old gunshy 6'2 210 pound Louis was the biggest opponent he faced factoring in both height and weight).

Rocky should obviously be favored on resume and h2h ability but it's honestly a mystery how effective his stubby arms and non stop aggression style would be against a 6'5 260 pound behemoth like Carnera. Generally speaking the shorter lighter man usually wins due to having a big advantage in skill, defense, speed, etc and Rocky wasn't particularly great in any of those categories to put it mildly.

 

Well Glass City Cobra, you got me where it hurts.
My heart is bruised, and I'll need two days and 8 blueberries to recover.

 

Not really...

 

I think Carnera actually might have the edge in skill in this one (never thought I'd ever say that about Carnera). I still think Rocky KOs him but you give me some pause.

 

Think about it: Carnera is used to smaller men charging forward and getting within his range. Two things you need to beat a small slugger is a solid jab and an uppercut. Those were two of Carnera's best punches. Rocky has incredibly stubby arms and needed 8 rounds to get past the jab of 6'2 37 year old Louis and needed 13 rounds to neutralize the jab and wear down the 6'0 38 year old Walcott. But he's going to easily slip the jab of 85' reach 6'5 Carnera who we saw on camera knock down the 6'2 210 pound Schaf with a jab? Who KO'd the slippery Sharkey with an uppercut? And as strong as Rocky is, he isn't outmuscling Carnera even on the inside so what will he do once he gets there?

On paper you would have to favor Carnera based on styles alone, let alone the enormous size difference.