How Would You Rate Mayweather, H2H, at Each Weight?

Sometimes there is an agenda no doubt, sometimes there is not. There are clearly times when a fighter(s) is pre prime and others where it fits a narrative.

Personally I think he example you gave I find to be a poor one (no disrespect). I personally think RJJ and Hops were both pre prime, and neither had yet fought on the championship level until this night and neither looked as good as they would both become. I don’t denigrate Jones by calling this a bad or inconsequential win, far from it he won this title against a top ranked opponent. Nor do we give Hops a pass for losing. But in evaluating the fight they were both very respectful of one another not taking many risks and engaging reluctantly. Not sure how someone could watch this and think either guy was a prime version? But still it is a high quality win for Jones. Likewise I don’t think Canelo was prime for the FMJ fight, not to denigrate Floyd or elevate Canelo (TBF I don’t think it matters Floyd beats him at any stage at this weight). Floyd beat a very good fighter in Canelo well above his own natural weight...that is impressive no matter how you slice it. Likewise Canelo was proven (I believe) to be great but not quite at the elite great level he would need to be to win this fight.

I agree there are a lot of guys who shift primes trying to create a narrative they want to spin, but I think there are many on this forum who are balanced and consistent in determining and defining primes.

Just my $0.02

 

depends on your criteria. For example Floyd beat more ranked opponents at WW than Hearns did during his longer stay at the weight. He beat more top 5 contenders than SRL, Hearns, Napoles, Gavilan, Armstrong and Emile Griffith. He holds multiple wins over lineal WW champs. He is the only guy to win the title twice without losing a fight at this weight. He only fought 2 Unranked guys at this weight and 1 was Ricky Hatton who was the reigning champ at 140....not a bad amount of quality or quantity IMO...and I don’t even like him lol

 

At any of 130, 135 or 140 I'd make him no worse than 50:50 (without splitting hairs) against anyone in history, and even then we're only talking the likes of Duran, Benny Leonard, Whitaker, Pryor, Napoles etc. (I know Napoles is better known as a Welter, but in terms of size he was closer to a natural 140 pounder and a fight between him and Floyd might produce its best spectacle at that weight). I'd actually favour him outright against some of the absolute monsters of those divisions such as Arguello, Nelson, Chavez, Ross, Armstrong and Locche - he's that great.

At Welter and Light-Middle it's a bit trickier. Safe to say he's relatively high up any H2H list there, but not quite in that same absolute elite bracket. I think he's too good to be disgraced against any of Hearns, Ray Leonard or Norris (stylistically I think Terry is a real problem for Mayweather at 154), but in my mind I'm not sure I can see him beating any of them, particularly Hearns or Leonard. I'd narrowly take Robinson over him, too.

I think he's even money against McCallum (that's not a knock on Mike, it's a commendation of Floyd) and a narrow favourite over guys like Gavilan and Griffith. Again based on styles, a prime Curry at 147 is going to be a tough ask for him as well. I think he beats the next cabs off the rank such as Trinidad, Starling, Basilio, Rodriguez and so on - but whereas he generally breezes past the equivalent kind of fighter at 130, 135 and 140, he has a few closer scraps and difficulties here.

Absolute elite at 130, 135 and 140, and still outstanding at 147 and 154. It's just that I think there are guys who are outright favourites against him at the latter two weights, whereas there aren't at the former.

 

Yes Mosley came off his best most sensational win. He was ranked #1. Therefore he was prime.

As for Pacquiao you are referring to his athleticism. Yes He slowed down in terms of raw speed but he actually improved quite a bit as a fighter. Prior to the Marquez and Bradley losses he had limited head movement, leaky defense, didn't jab a lot, very little lateral movement, and often just went in guns a blazing.

After those losses we saw the complete opposite and he was a much better fighter. He used angles and kept his guard up. He was a far better boxer than the relentless volume puncher than he was before. Arguably the only thing that was "worse" was his his raw speed (which was still top notch) and his wasn't as bloodthirsty going for the kill. To quote yourself, using nothing but my eyes it was clear he was actually a much better fighter.

Yes I accused you of having an agenda because literally everything you've been writing has been said by literally hundreds of people. That doesn't make it correct or valid. So many people were saying Pac, Mosley, and Oscar were going to murder Floyd and then had to do damage control after they lost. It's become more and more apparent you didn't follow this saga back then.

 

Here's my thing: Hopkins was 28. Yes He improved overall years later but in this very thread people are saying Mosley and Pacquiao were past their prime despite coming off great wins before facing Floyd.

Yet Tyson is washed up/past his prime whatever you want to call it in his 20's against Douglas, Canelo was "green" at 23 with 40+ fights even though Tyson was tearing through the division at that age and considered prime. Walcott aged like fine win somehow before he fought Rocky at 38, etc.

The criteria cannot just be physical age because people are all over the place.

 

if you are saying that fighters age differently we agree. But contextually we need to examine each fighter under an arbitrary light of when they were prime?

just to use the ones you have mentioned:
Hopkins/RJJ both very good but neither prime although RJJ was likely closer to his. Either way it is a good win against a highly ranked opponent.

Mosley was not close to his prime, but was still a dangerous opponent. It is a quality win but not to the degree it would have been years earlier. Not that I think it matters Floyd should beat any version of Mosley although perhaps less emphatically.

Pac, was also past his prime but still likely the 2nd best fighter around. Injury or not this is a solid win. Again I don’t think it matters as I think Floyd beats him at any point even though I am not particularly a fan of either one. I just think Floyd is better.

Tyson is a difficult one as no one was really saying he was post prime at the time, and most like myself thought it would be a joke fight with Tyson making quick work of him. I believe (speculative I know) that Tyson was still at his physical peak...but out of ring stuff with the benefit of hindsight show he was fading as early as Bruno. He certainly was evolving into a headhunting KO seeking machine rather than the earlier diverse fighter with a great body attack that he seemed to neglect under his new team. With Tysons style (ala Frazier Jung Koo Chang types)he was never realistically going to have a long prime IMO. But this win for Douglas is about as good as it gets against perhaps the best HW around and clearly a top 10 ATG who even if he was not at his apex/peak was still physically in his prime even if mentally emotionally was not.

canelo- I hear people call him green, but to me neither he nor Hopkins was “green” even though I don’t believe either was prime at this time. Canelo was close and I think what he learned in this loss (ala Azumah Nelson although he had less fights learned against Sanchez) sent him into his prime.

Walcott is another interesting one who didn’t have the financial backing early in his career and was able to age well as his career went.

all of this is is difficult if not outright impossible to determine especially in a consensus because some have agendas and some use different terminology.

peak usually a 3-4 fight window where a fighter was his absolute best.

Prime a window of 2-5 years but hard to consistently apply a time line window that is consistently applied as fighters age differently.

pre prime/Post prime surrounding the prime years where they are still fighting at a high level but not at their pinnacle.

green-Hopkins was green in his first fight that he lost but not when he lost to RJJ...maybe a 9 fight Azumah Nelson against Sanchez might qualify or Sot Chitalada against Jung Koo Chang in his 5th fight.

faded A guy who is clearly past his prime RJJ vs Calzaghe/Hopkins II comes to mind

 

Plus SRR at WW.

 

Outside of favoring Armstrong against Floyd based on styles, this is pretty similar to how I feel.

 

I would have to think about this but I'd confidently pick Mayweather over anyone at 130 and would put him firmly in the top 3 or 4 lightweights too. Good thread but need to think hard about 147

 

You have clearly exaggerated.

To even think about classing Floyd as being the no.1 WW of all time, you’re saying that he was the best at the weight, based mostly on his ability. But how? He was at his peak below WW.

I don’t see how he can even be considered as being the GOAT at WW.

He doesn’t possess a great body of work at the weight, and certainly not the phenomenal body of work which you have claimed.

He didn’t fight Canelo, Oscar and Cotto there, which are three of the best wins of his career.

Here are all of his fights at WW:

Mitchell
Judah
Baldomir
Hatton
JMM
Ortiz
Guerrero
Maidana
Manny
Berto

What is phenomenal about the above?

Yes, he put in some fine performances there. But that isn’t a phenomenal body of work. Not at all.

We know that he deliberately cheated JMM on the scales.

Maidana gave him huge trouble. (yes, I realise his age at the time)

He waited Manny out, stalling the fight by accusing Manny of being dirty, before we then found out that he’d taken PEDS himself before they fought. And you’ve said yourself in previous threads that Manny was faded against Bradley, in the fights that he had against him before he fought Floyd. Yes, he was also faded himself against Manny. That has to be acknowledged. But beating a faded, injured Manny whilst being on PEDS, wasn’t a great win for him.

Regarding Canelo, no, it’s not Floyd’s fault that Canelo wasn’t prime. But Floyd only gets credit for beating the specific version of Canelo he fought 7-8 years ago. He doesn’t get the credit for beating today’s version. And the unnecessary C-W certainly takes some shine off of the win.

 

I'm not going to rate a fighter I've never seen.

 

How can he rate at No.2 at JMW behind Hearns?

 

Floyd stalled the Manny fight for ages.

This was proven when the fight took place in 2015, which was a few years after Manny had agreed to all of his testing demands.

 

Everybody ages differently.

I think Tommy’s prime was just slightly later at JMW. But the point is, Tommy was prepared for a fight with a prime Leonard, whereas Canelo wasn’t prepared to fight an ageing Floyd at that point.