Joe Louis vs. Jersey Joe Walcott I

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by William Walker, Mar 29, 2021.


  1. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    1. Both Joe's came out jabbing, Walcott showing far greater foot movement, and also showing good shoulder movement as well. Louis backed Walcott into a corner with a right hand (certainly not one of his best). Louis followed up with a two-fisted flurry, but Walcott fired back, and with greater effectiveness. It was Jersey Joe's final right hand at the end of his own flurry that dropped Louis backwards, on the palms of his hands. Of course, Louis was knocked down. Some might try to take something away from Walcott and say that Joe was off balance, but what followed proves just the opposite. Louis was hurt repeatedly throughout the rest of the round by vicious counter right hands. Once Joe nearly went down again. Walcott.
    2-3. Walcott excelled at rolling, moving, and jabbing. Both for Walcott.
    4. During an exchange, Louis walked right into another big counter right hand and went down for the second time, this time forwards, on the palms of his hands. Walcott.
    5-6. Uneventful with Walcott taking the 5th and Louis taking the 6th.
    7. Joe finally started an offensive, but just ended up getting counter-right handed to DEATH. Walcott.
    8. Louis just can't figure Walcott. Walcott scores with good left jabs and counter rights. Walcott.
    9. Quite a big of exchanging. Louis just eating right hands. The two slugged it out in a corner at the end of the round. This was one of Joe's best rounds. Even.
    10. Not enough shown.
    11. Louis hurt by another right hand. Walcott.
    12. Walcott.
    13. Not much occurs here. Walcott slips throwing a big right. I can't find my score for this round.
    14. The two engage in one of the few big exchanges of the match. Walcott.
    15. Walcott turned very defensive here, clearly in an effort to not get careless, since he knew he won the fight up to this point. Louis pursued but to no avail. Even while he ran away, Walcott was the better man. Walcott.

    Remember, most of not all of these rounds are incomplete, so I am scoring this off of what is here, I'm not saying it's necessarily completely true.
    Final score (ousting 10 for lack of film, and 13 cuz I lost my score): 11-1-1. Very bleak. A total white-wash for Walcott.

    Verdict: This is not the most exciting match ever, but I love the hell out of it. I've seen it three times, and don't intend to ever discard it. Too bad it doesn't have better film though. I wish the whole thing had been available some where. It's a classic to me. Walcott delivers easily one of the best performances of his career, showing great footwork, a great jab, and underrated rolling, and first and foremost, some of the best counterpunching skill ever wielded by a pugilist. I thought the fight was entertaining for its duration though. Louis, on the other hand, gave a terrible performance. He was not careful, and at times he was downright reckless. I'm sure Louis probably wouldn't have fallen for these traps before he joined the military, and even if he had, and he had been floored once, he wouldn't have let it happen again. WATCH this CLASSIC boxing match.
     
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  2. Oddone

    Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

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    The crowd at Madison Square Garden almost witnessed one of greatest upsets in sports history. Walcott was what... a ten to one underdog?

    From the opening bell all could see that Louis was flat and uninspired, while Walcott appeared sharp and primed for a tough fight. Focused on an early knockout, the champion walked into a counter right hand in the first round and, to everyone’s shock, he hit the deck. It happened again in the fourth.

    Walcott, now well ahead on points, went about cleanly out-boxing Louis with clever footwork, a stinging jab and a powerful right hand, winning round after round. Louis kept stalking, gunning for the knockout, but couldn’t find the target. In the last three rounds, Jersey Joe, assured by his corner that the victory was in the bag, stayed away from the champion, but even with Louis taking the final three rounds, to the eyes of most observers the contest clearly belonged to the challenger.

    Walcott was robbed in my opinion.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    New York Times and Ring were both int he minority that scored it for Louis.

    11-1-1 is the widest score i've ever seen, even of the highlights. Not to say you're wrong.

    The widest score at ringside was 9-6; most cards were 8-7ish. Two thirds from ringside scored for Walcott, if you exclude the judges.
     
  4. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yeah, I'm not above more being for Louis. I imagined the more condensed rounds he must of won, but I guess a realistic score would be impossible to find without the full-length fight for us to verify ourselves.
     
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  5. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Correct.

    In "my opinion"? IN FACT!
     
  6. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    We don't have the full rounds, but of what we see, Walcott clearly got the better of it. His quirky style confused Louis.

    What stands out overall to me is the improvement in skill among the heavyweights we have seen since the early 1930's. Louis was a good boxer, and Walcott brings it to another level. His footwork and head movement is outstanding.

    Walcott's move and hit and not be hit style might have been out of synch with what boxing fans and judges of the time (and perhaps any time) were looking for. This led to some dubious decisions.

    Louis was knocked down twice. He jumped up as usual from the first knockdown, but took a count on the second. This was the first time since the Schmeling KO that he seemed really hurt.

    Walcott was not only a skilled boxer, but he was a very dangerous puncher, which separated him from Loughran and Conn. He was also a heavier man than either.
     
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  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I generally try to avoid getting drawn into this argument these days, but here's what I have.

    I like to start by comparing it to ringsiders for Pac-Bradley I. This is a result so seemingly without explanation that of the one-hundred and twenty-five media sources I have seen produce a scorecard we have one-hundred and twenty-one scoring in favor of Pacquiao, three scoring in favor of Bradley, and one scoring the fight a draw. That is a ratio of around about 1:30 against those seeing the fight any other way than a win for Pacquiao. Not all of these were ringside but about 100 were and the ratio remains about the same.

    The Pittsburgh Press conducted a ringside poll of writers at the venue the night Louis decisioned Walcott and whilst the majority, twenty-four, had Jersey Joe the winner, some sixteen had it for Louis. This is a ratio of 2:3 against. One media source reports a Bradley win for every thirty polled. Two media sources report a Louis win for every five polled. The point is not that Pacquiao was robbed and so Walcott was not, the point is that Thomas Hauser, Brian Kenny and the other forlorn souls who did not see a win for Pacquiao can be dismissed as statistical anomalies—they either made mistakes or sat in a corner of the stadium that would always give birth to such a strange score. In the case of Louis, he is backed by sixteen boxing men who know the fight game. If we include the judges amongst those polled, the difference between those who see it for Louis and those who see it for Walcott starts to look more negligible (25-18, or a difference of seven).

    The widest media scorecard I have been able to source for Louis-Walcott was the AP card which had it 9-5-1 for Walcott. I was unable to source more than one ringside card that had Walcott winning any more than eight rounds. Those who stood in judgment over Louis in a surprisingly rabid press that following week typically did so based on a scorecard provided for them by a ringside reporter that had Walcott winning only six, seven or eight rounds. This is exactly what almost every single ringsider has Louis scoring. So even those who had Walcott winning had him winning pretty close.

    The New York Times described Louis as having been “out-thought” and “generally made to look foolish,” but the newspaper also scored the fight for the champion because he had “made all the fighting, did most of the leading and, his two knockdowns notwithstanding, landed a greater number of blows.” Nat Flesicher, scoring for The Ring, also saw it for Louis.

    Louis, unquestionably the puncher in the fight, landed more punches according to the Times. Whilst the newspaper men ringside tended to believe that Walcott had won, there were many who felt that the exact opposite was the case, including the men who mattered. Referee Ruby Goldstein scored it 7-6-2 for Walcott, judge Marty Monroe had it 9-6 to Louis and judge Frank Forbes had it 8-6-1 for the champion.

    More, nobody now labelling this a clear robbery has even seen the fight. But even if we had the entire fight, all we would have is a modern eye trying to interpret a fight set in 1940s with their respect for the title, their heightened appreciation of aggression and accented disdain for the retreat. That needs to be remembered - retreating fighters had a tougher time on 1940s scorecards, and everyone knew that was the case. The notion that you had to "take the title from the champion", meaningless today, was birthed in this era.

    Louis was the aggressor, the puncher, the champion, and according to at least one reputable source the busier man. More than that, there were no ringside scorecards that mimicked the degree of outrage expressed by the press.

    I got no problem with an opinion that Walcott on balance deserved the nod, but the idea that this was a daylight robbery...yeah, that proof doesn't exist. Why then the controversy?

    It is a fact that the crowd booed Louis from the ring. This has lent credence to what has become a truth by repetition. Perhaps, like Louis himself, they were disgusted with the champion’s performance (disgust, according to Joe, that caused him to attempt to leave the ring before the verdict was even read). More likely, they had seen Louis bamboozled by an opponent that had seemed one step ahead of him at all times. But fights are not and were not scored upon aesthetics. If Louis was out-landing Walcott and enough of those punches carried enough vim to impress two of the three judges, Joe’s job was done.

    Finally, the fight continued to garner attention in the press because the method for scoring boxing itself was on trial. Whilst Walcott had been awarded points for his two knockdowns in rounds one and four on the supplementary system, they had in reality only gained him two rounds on the cards and whilst judge Forbes actually awarded Louis more rounds he awarded Walcott more points. When there seemed even a hint of a chance that the decision could be overturned on a technicality (it was claimed that Forbes should have reversed his decision based upon general impressions, permitted in a case where a judge awards more points but fewer rounds to a given fighter) the controversy continued to burn.
     
  8. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't think that Walcott is more skilled fighter than Schmeling.
     
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  9. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Schmeling was the most skilled heavyweight of the early 1930's, but I think Walcott is more versatile and elusive. Schmeling though was a skilled fighter with a punch. I think Max had trouble holding off aggressive fighters. Note the Baer fight. Baer might land a big one on Walcott, but more likely he gets badly out-boxed.
     
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  10. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't really think he struggled against agressive fighters. Walker and Hamas were agressive and Schmeling dominated them. He simply put up his worst filmed performance against Baer.

    Don't forget that Walcott lost to guys like Abe Simon, I wouldn't be so sure that he'd beat Baer.

    I also don't find Walcott more versatile - Schmeling could pressure you, he could counter you, he could outbox you and keep you away with jab. Walcott was very unorthodox, but he wasn't that versatile.
     
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  11. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't see Walker or Hamas doing much against Walcott, to be truthful. Walker was small.

    "Walcott lost to guys like Abe Simon"

    There are two Walcotts. The pre-war Walcott was simply not that good off his record, losing to quite a few second-raters. But in fairness Max was blown out in one by the likes of Gypsy Daniels. Both men had hard to understand smudges on their records, and a fight between them might be a flip a coin match.

    On Simon, I think the largest man Schmeling ever defeated was Ben Foord at 208. Simon at 240 to 250 or something would have been different. It would have been interesting to see Schmeling in against such a big man.

    I like the post-war Walcott as the better, but wouldn't go to the wall about it. A case can be made for Schmeling.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
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  12. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think you should have avoided this one as well.
     
  13. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    why?
     
  14. William Walker

    William Walker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Schmeling didn't dominate Walker. Well, in a way he did, but after he dropped Walker in the 1st, Walker did most of the work from 2 thru 7, most of which he won.

    Bringing up the Simon fight I think is a discussion about natural durability rather than skill. Walcott had an average chin. He could take some shots, but he wasn't invincible. Schmeling was tough as nails though.
     
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well aside from speculating as to why Louis was booed, i've just produced facts surrounding the fight.

    It's not unheard of to find a thread where such things are unwelcome, but it does happen.