Rocky wins wide UD or late stoppage Primo didn’t have near the power to keep Rocky honest. Rocky wades in all night with his bombs and stamina and wears out Carnera for late stoppage or wins wide on points.
Still cherry picking the worst fight in their careers as if they always fought that way? This ladies and gentlemen is peak intellectual dishonesty. Just move the goal post fo distinguish between skills/overall ability and when that doesn't work zero in on a bad fight as if boxers fight perfectly every single time and ignore all their good fights where they display good skill and ability. As if people need to cherry pick Carnera's fights to point out moments where he looks bad. The delusion!
1. We've never argued about overall ability, since we're on the same side of that debate. We're arguing boxing skills. 2. Is it cherry picking? Okay. I just went to the two first fights I found from Vitali, and scrubbed to a random part of the fight, and this is what I saw: This content is protected This content is protected My first question is am I still cherry picking? My second is question is, are these not the boxing skills you refer to when you claim that Vitali Klitschko employs an evolved level of the sweet science compared to Primo Carnera? If the answer to both questions is yes, feel free to demonstrate otherwise. Vitali had grit, distance control, power, strength, heart, a good hard jab, and toughness. Things that mostly don't fall under the "technicals" category. Regarding technicals, he keeps his hands low, chin forward, crosses his feet, punches from the hip, doesn't pull his hands back with speed after punching, and has the balance of someone who looks like they can tip over any second. Unless I'm crazy, and I'm the only one who sees this (I'd venture to guess that I'm not), then no. I absolutely do not see how he has evolved the sweet science beyond Primo Carnera. If you'd like to counter based on the merits of the argument, as opposed to ad hominem and riff raff, be my guest.
The Louis that Marciano destroyed had a better jab and more power than a prime Primo and WAlcott would have toyed with Primo.
1-I don't remember ever bringing up ability/talent as that was clear as day Carnera doesn't compare. When you word things like "is THIS your example of super modern super heavyweight boxing?" or however you put it I'm automatically assuming you are referring to skill since that's what people usually argue about: if boxing has "evolved" or not. Even if you disagree with the idea that boxing has evolved overall, on an individual level I find it very strange of you to claim boxers like Bowe, Lewis, and Vitali aren't better in terms of technical skill. 2-Yes, you WERE cherry picking to use literally the worst version of Lennox, a fat old boxer in his last fight. There is NO difference between doing that and picking Ali of the Berbick fight or Tyson of the Mcbride fight. It's very silly and dishonest. I can't believe I have to point this out. 3-No you aren't cherry picking by posting other fights of Vitali's. Now we're getting somewhere. I had said this to you in the other thread and you straight up ignored it. 4-distance control is an intangible and has absolutely nothing to do with Vitali's talent/ability/physical properties. It's purely mental. It absolutely has everything to do with technical skill, you have to be TAUGHT distance control. Being able to vary your jab, changing the angle, throwing it after finishing a combo, etc are all technical skills. The only thing I agree with is simply having heavy hands or a powerful jab is not a technical skill, but being able to put variety behind it and make people think is. 5-keeping your hands low is unorthodox, true, but it is not "poor technique" if you are able to effectively keep guys away from you. Ali did the same thing. The difference between them and Carnera is Carnera would get nailed a LOT so it clearly wasn't working all that well for him. Carnera got dropped at least 15-20x and was stopped 5x. Vitali and Ali were only stopped once each and in Vitali's case it was due to a cut and Ali's was a corner stoppage when he was a thousand years old. Vitali only went down once or twice I believe, Ali about 3-4x. The difference is as clear as night and day who was more effective at using the hands down style to anyone who isn't in denial. As for Vitali looking like he could fall over anytime...he didn't. Carnera did, A LOT, so, how the hell is Carnera better technically when it comes to balance? 6-Yes sometimes Vitali left his chin open...SO DID CARNERA. Vitali would at least attempt to sway/lean back to get away from shots and sticks his arms out as a fence to keep guys from following up. Carnera literally just had his head out there with zero head movement at all in some of the clips I've seen. 7-Punching from the hip is unorthodox but isn't necessarily wrong depending on the mechanics. Actually, if you turn with your hips you can get even more power than simply using the shoulder and turning your hands over. In karate there are actually devasting rotating punches from the hips that can knock the wind out of people. You can get a lot of body weight and snap into a shot punching from the hip, and Vitali has quite a few stoppages (even if he does lack that raw destructive power of guys like Tyson and Louis) so he was doing something right. His mechanics weren't pretty but they were far more effective than Carnera's awkward punches where he would sometimes push or barely step into shots. Your whole argument is that Carnera isn't any worse/better yet every example you give indicates that is not the case. I only use ad hominems when people are intentionally being intellectually dishonest or silly. You ignored points I made, moved the goal posts, and made intentional cherry picks. There was nothing remotely rude in my initial question about Carnera's skill. I did not swear, yell, make demands, or insult you, I simply asked you to rate him with a straight answer and then you got cheeky telling me to ask you "nicely" and then you might respond. That is all I will say on the matter.
I'm far from Carnera fan, but I do see some double standards here. You try to explain why Vitali doesn't look as bad as he does, but when someone tries to do the same with oldschool fighters then there come 10 trolls who try to do everything to make you wrong. Carnera isn't good technical boxer, although he's better than a lot of fat, unskilled brawlers we have had in the division in last 20 years. Vitali is inarguably better boxer than Carnera, but he's not good technically either. He definitely never showed anything close to "sweet science" inside the ring. I say this as Klitchskos fan.
This content is protected Imagine if this was filmed with 1930s cameras. He's just so awkward. And not like Muhammad Ali dancing awkward, but like Jess Willard running on dirt tracks barefoot awkward.
