Why Couldn't Patterson Get Beyond Round One With Liston?

Very true post, again I saw the fight live on Closed Circuit Television. Floyd Patterson did fight bravely in the early going, but he was outgunned, Muhammad Ali was 23 years old, too much speed, and as you stated, taller, bigger, and stronger. But as I saw it, Floyd began to have trouble with his back, his trainer Al Silvani had to hoist him around the waist. And let's not forget that Ali did deck Floyd in round 6. On the Sept 28 1976 of the radio broadcast of Ali vs Norton III, Floyd said that when he fought Ali in 1965, he had trouble with Ali's legs, but when he fought him again in 1972, he did not have any trouble with Ali because he had lost his legs by then.

 

Granted, Ali being good enough to physically beat Floyd clearly had a lot more to do with Beating Floyd Patterson than simply beating him mentally. However, that being said, I still think, mentally it was a factor. Patterson had a back issue, this too can be a factor, maybe it became more of a factor because of the mental side of things?

Being mentally spent won’t always mean being scared. It will feature in other ways to do with his focus and belief. It’s To do with the big occasions. Floyd was still good enough to beat Chuvalo, Machen, Coooer, Bonavena...some say Ellis and Quarry...in non title fights. But under the world spot light he had lost his mojo. The occasions had gotten to him by then.

An example I would like to use is Frank Bruno. Here was a guy good enough to win fights he knew he could win who still couldn’t help the occasion drain him. Even when Oliver McCall, a former sparring partner he was very familiar with and confident of beating, was gift wrapped for Frank in a title fight with home advantage, he still almost managed to blow it.

psychologically, Ingo was Floyds Everest. He spent, mentally, the last of the big night performances on him. No matter how many other good fighters Floyd beat, with a title involved, he just couldn’t bring it after that.

 

You may be correct about Bruno vs. McCall. However in his case while he was a Wold Class fighter, he mostly was not good enough to beat the very best. Like another likely even harder hitter, Earnie Shavers.
You can say Burno froze when he was hurt...But it was only the very best guys who *could* hurt him.

I think you are incorrect about Patterson because there is no specific reason to believe that the discrepancy in size, skills & his back issue (which we have no reason to believe effected him mentally, just physically) is more than enough to mean that as long as Ali was nearly equally prime-or more so-Ali would win.

In fact Patterson had a lot to prove, & without the intimidation factor, including great power...Floyd seemed unaffected mentally by Ali.
He did as well as he was likely to be physically able to in both fights.

 

Ali looked fantastic in that one. That fight, the first against Liston and the one against Terrell is probably his top performances all things considered imo.

 

There was a title involved against Ellis. And a 34-year old Floyd deserved the decision and to become the first ever three time world champion.

This thing about Floyd choking is nonsense. Liston and Ali were just better. And Ali was just better than Liston. That's all.

 

Floyd actually said after the second that "it will be no fake beards this time". And he was reportedly in good shape. He also said he wasn't afraid, just nervous and tense: https://www.boxingnewsonline.net/on...nny-liston-obliterates-floyd-patterson-again/

I can see that. And Liston of course never gave him the time to work that tenseness off.

 

Brunos best performance was probably the one against Lewis. In front of thousands and thousands - for a title.

 

Patterson was in essence an offensive fighter. He was at his best when he took the fight to the opponent. He couldn't box like Ali or even Machen, so therefore he was chanceless against Liston, who was a wrecking ball at that time.

 

And yet Floyd was so much more competitive in the second Ali fight when there was no title at steak. Why wasn’t Floyd as good in the first fight? He was brave. He stuck it out longer, but his eye had not closed. I guess it could be partly to do with his back problem. But this was Floyds very last fight. He should have been much worse. Not better.

people can say Ali was better in the first fight than he was in the second and that’s why Patterson was less competitive first time. But Ali was still very decent in 1972. As good as he got in his second coming. When Patterson was much older.

I am not saying Floyd was ever good enough to beat Ali but he was always good enough to be as competitive against Ali as he was in their 1972 fight. And he just wasn’t when they fought for a title. I think for the real title, as much as he wanted for it not to happen, Floyd couldn’t ever muster that “victory over himself” to be as completely competitive when it counted for a really big occasion. That 1972 fight, only Floyds eye let him down, he had won more rounds against Ali that time around...and he really should not have. He should have done a lot worse than the first fight. That’s why I think psych wise he did do better that time. No pressure to do as well.

But having said all that, Yes Ali was too good overall. I just think Floyd had a deep down complicated identity issue with regaining the undisputed title after the Ingo bouts that effected his focus.

 

You make a good case choklab.
You could add that many people had Patterson ahead before the cut stoppage.
Ali wasted rounds feeling Patterson out.
That may be the reason Patterson did better.
Maybe vs. another very fast boxer, Ali losing much foot speed made a bigger difference.

While you could be right, I just do not see he likely could have done better in the first fight.
His back may have been the largest part of the reason.
Without the intimiating presence of Liston, it may have not effected him.

I also do not know if the title wars with Ingo traumatized him.

 

I’m not sure Sonny was even in a position high enough to challenge Floyd until after patterson lost to Ingo. By then Floyd was the former champion with a rematch clause. Liston was #9 in the ratings when Floyd defended against #1 Ingo. When Floyd won the title back, there was another rematch clause to sideline Liston. When you think about it, Sonny really got his shot at the first available moment once the clauses were out of the way. Sure he waited a long time. But that’s how it was.

 

That’s probably correct, it’s just that there’s the perception built up over the years that they were avoiding Sonny.

 

As this man says.

 

He's backkkk!!!!!!!!!!

 

I disagree that he couldn't box. Watch his bout against Chuvalo.