Why Couldn't Patterson Get Beyond Round One With Liston?

Are you being naughty again chok in regard to Mr. Liston?

In 1958 he decimated Wayne Bethea, a top 10 contender, in just over a minute. Bethea, who had never before been down, had seven teeth knocked out. In fact he made such a splash in this one Patterson was immediately offered $250 000 to defend against him.

In 1959 he brutalised a respected contender in Nino Valdes in 3.

Earlier in 59 he also belted out The Big Cat who had received quite a bit of press of his own.

Even earlier in 59 he belted out Mike DeJohn, another top 10 contender.

Liston was most certainly in top form and on the minds of all the big players well before 1960 came along. 58-59 were hugely successful years for Sonny where he put a number of contenders to the sword and made a big name for himself.

 

I agree with all of this, Liston was certainly a good prospect in 58 and starting to get talked about. In those days future champions climbed the rankings by beating higher places contenders. So it is a good start.

In 59’ he’s looking as good as he got against some handy fringe guys. but he’s only just starting to climb the ranks. The 1959 wins are not really overshadowing anyone else yet. These contenders all fought each other and most were 50-50 at that level. Losing fights.

importantly Sonny Is justifiably at #9 around the time Ingo was #1 having beat Machen in one round...which was the late 1950s period.

However, By 1960 Liston is future champion material. Sonny is landing fights with men placed higher than he is and winning big. This is more of a prime. He’s beating guys worthy of title fights like Machen, Foley and recent challengers like Harris, who he beats more impressively than the champion.

Muhammad Ali is spoken of as not being in his prime even after he’s beat men like Miteff, Jones, Billy Daniels, Cooper, Lavarante and Moore most of whom were also rated or recently rated. So I don’t see Sonny needing to be in his prime to beating the Bert Whithursts, nino Valdes and Willie Besmanoff.

 

Hard to say, but it seems reasonable to me that Liston hit his prime around the first Williams fight and then peaked in the coming years.

This '58-'59 prime thing, though, seems a bit manufactured to get his prime as far away as possible from his losses, since he was only on 15 pro fights, without much of an amateur background, and back from a two year break in early '58.

That he was in his prime when he went the distance twice with Whitehearst and was still fairly green in terms of pro experience, but past his prime when he KO'd Folley and Patterson seems a bit far fetched.

 

exactamundo.

Sonny was a pro for just 31 or so months before his incarceration.

He was absent from the ring for 22 or so months... which would be like starting all over from scratch.

but by fight 8, just eleven months into his relaunch, Sonny is prime?

He’s literally 8-0 at this point. Who is ready for a title at 8-0? This is Leon Spinks territory.

 

I do think Liston looked good in the first fight against Williams, but he looked improved in the rematch. Especially his jab and his head movement, He also throws a lead right several times, which is surprisingly bold.

Yes, you can argue that the previous KO win put him at a psychological advantage in the rematch, but it's also logical that he would have improved, as the footage suggests, over those eleven months, since he didn't have that much pro experience in their first fight.

 

When he beat Bethea Truman Gibson said he would offer Patterson $250 000 to take on Liston. Bethea had never been stopped and went the distance with big punching Nino Valdes in his previous fight. One minute it took Liston!

Liston showed an excellent jab, good poise, good anticipation and defense and when he exploded man did he explode. He looked strong too when Bethea looked for a respite. It's one of his best filmed performances. He showed a variety of power punches and they were both accurate and immense. I'd back him to beat Patterson as early as this.

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Remember prime is not "peak". Many improve from their early prime to their peak and they also have prime left after their peak is gone.

Given how dangerous and successful Sonny was from Bethea on i don't think it's unreasonable to say he was entering his prime with the Bethea result and performance. You can see what a weapon he was in that fight. He beat a top 10 contender into submission in 69 seconds, one who had never been stopped. Bethea was a name contender if not a top one. Liston went from strength to strength from Bethea on even if Whitehurst lasted the duration. He was punched out of the ring in the final seconds of the bout and two judges didn't give him a round.

With regards to Ali i don't think Liston necessarily needs any past prime excuses. At the end of the day Ali turned into the GOAT and Liston's drop off of intensity is well documented. He'd fought less than two rounds in two years. As Steward said Ali was the worst possible style that could have come along for him at that stage.

 

Lets play a game.

SRL had 2 fights in 5 1/2 years. When he had his "relaunch" after the Howard bout he hadn't fought for 35 months. So at this stage he is "literally" 0-0-0. He beat Hagler on his debut!!!!

Ali was exiled for 43 months. He literally beat Jerry Quarry, a top 4 heavyweight on debut!! He then beat top 10 contender Oscar Bonavena in "literally" his second fight!! He's even better than Neon Leon.

I don't think i need to go on.

 

It's hard to say with primes. Normally I wouldn't think anyone with so relative little amateur plus pro experience is in his prime, but you have guys like Witherspoon who put on one of his best performances after just 13 pro fights or something, so it's always hard to know.

But there shouldn't be much question that Liston was already a very good fighter when he beat Bethea, but he was also probably improving.

As for his state in 1964... Hard to know. It seems he stopped training seriously enough after winning the title and while he looked really sharp in the Patterson rematch it could be that he was only a 6-7 rd fighter at that point. This is after all a guy who never went over 10, I think, and if he was cutting down on roadwork that should of course hurt his stamina together with his ageing.

So we know for quite sure he wasn't in top shape in 1964 and probably hadn't trained for a fight that went past the half-way point. We also know that he looked really sharp against Floyd in the first round seven months earlier. Other than that it's hard to say.

 

Good stuff mate.

 

Excellent post, one nitpick. Liston did go over 10. He went 12 with Machen.