Ingemar Johansson, 1958 vs Frank Bruno, 1986, who wins and why?

Bruno was a stiff, robotic, slow fighter who almost completely validated the "musclebound" myth. He developed a decent jab and one-two and occassionally managed a hook off the jab, but his skills were otherwise rudimentary at best.

I think he has a good chance against Johansson but I don't think "greater size" is a good argument really, in this case. Bruno's bulk was an asset for a few rounds but often a hindrance thereafter.

Johansson was a much better boxer than given credit for. That's all I can say really. It seems some people think he lacked skill or something. I don't see anything much wrong with his boxing at all. He wasn't flashy but he could box a bit, relaxed and varied.
His problem is he didn't have a GREAT chin, so Bruno might do him.

 

Patterson, World Champion 59
Machen, #1 contender 58

Both undefeated in their prime. If that's not beating the best, frankly nothing is.

Liston was still on his way up at this time. The offers from Liston came later when Patterson and Ingo were already fighting a classic trilogy.

Many thought Bruno deserved the verdict against Lewis? These many must not understand boxing because Bruno was knocked out. You can't even call this a typo because the crux of your argument for Bruno is a result that didn't happen.

Many thought Mercer deserved the verdict against Lewis. And you know what, as much crap as I give Mercer, he actually has the tools to upset Ingo.

I'm gonna just put you on ignore, sorry not sorry, because this is the third time now you've responded rudely to me while completely blowing the most basic of facts. I have no conclusion left but that you are a troll, a subtle troll, but a time waster all the same.

 

"He went 1-2 against Patterson" is more of a testament to Patterson's abilities, desire and longevity than any knock on Ingemar.

To be clear, he was 1-0 against Patterson at one point, and in such a manner than without a "rematch clause" really didn't render an immediate rematch logical at all. Johansson brutalized him. Patterson did something similar back to him in the rematch, and that is regarded as one of the best victories in the entire history of the division ...... and the 'rubber match' was actually a two-sided fight that ended a bit controversially in Patterson's favour.
Johansson didn't have the discipline to sustain his form AFTER he won the title, but he was clearly a formidable fighter at his best.

 

Also, can someone list the times he supposedly "ducked Liston" .... ?

As far as I remember, he was tied to the Patterson rematch when he was champion and Liston wasn't yet #1 contender.

 

I don't see Bruno being aggressive enough to pull this off, Ingo is actually the faster starter.

 

Good point, Johansson scored his two biggest wins in the 1st and 3rd rounds.
Bruno has the 1st round win over Coetzee and was quite pumped up and aggressive early on at his best, and that was part of the reason he burned himself out in fights, he was full of nervous energy, tight and not relaxed at all. Still, the punches he landed were heavy.

 

Coetzee was in that bracket. As a matter of fact he had pole axed Dokes well previous. Thomas and Berbick were in the process of fighting the same month Bruno pumped Gerrie. Gerrie was rated above Dokes and Berbick at this point.

 

Bruno was scheduled to fight Berbick in September/October 1987 but Berbick pulled out so the Bugner fight was hastily arranged.

 

Au contraire.

Witherspoon was highly motivated and despite being overweight he was in good condition as he had trained hard.

There a great article here - https://www.expressandstar.com/spor...-years-ago-tim-witherspoon-beats-frank-bruno/

And Tims own words - "I didn’t think Frank Bruno would be easy, I didn’t take him lightly like I took a lot of other guys lightly. So I was really serious about Bruno, it was something that I had dreamed of, going into someone’s backyard and coming out victorious. I had always wanted to do something like this so we didn’t underestimate him at all,” he said."

 

Thanks JT - Saved me a post

 

I think only Champions can really be called out for ducking, especially if it's against their leading contender or a deserving mandatory.

Ingo made one title defense against the Champion he just defeated.

After that, we can't blame Ingo for cashing in on a third fight for the World Championship against the man he was 1-1 against? After the two losses to Patterson, he was basically done and looking to unsuccessfully rebuild.

It's also just dishonest to crown Liston as the best in this period when it was Ingo...not Liston who demolished Machen and Patterson.

 

Yeah, Coetzee was there as a sacrifice, Bruno knew the fight was his, and he had to look impressive.

Bruno had horrible stamina. Instead of looking to start fast against real opponents that could threaten him, he became conservative out of fear of gassing. He hugged Tyson to death and basically stayed behind his jab against Lewis until he couldn't.

 

Witherspoon was overweight against Bruno and looked like he wasn't in great condition, was breathing hard from early on.
Either way, Bruno was beaten up badly by him.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure how people can fault Johansson 1958-'60.
After cleaning out the European HWs, he destroyed undefeated 24-0-1 Machen and the 35-1 (close disputed points loss) champion Floyd Patterson.
Machen and Patterson are possibly Liston's best wins too ! (after Ingo did it).

Liston is greater than Johansson, but in 1958 and '59 clearly Johansson was the man.

 

Coetzee destroyed his hand against Dokes.

He had major surgery, took 14 months off the big title win and was knocked out by Page in a fight where he struggled to use his bionic hand and defend himself properly.

Coetzee took another 10 months off and had a poor showing against Tillis, before being served to Bruno. He still had a rating but was injured and a sitting duck. I don't blame Bruno's team for the match up, it was a low risk and high reward, but not something I would point to as a demonstration of great ability.