Ingemar Johansson, 1958 vs Frank Bruno, 1986, who wins and why?

Bruno certainly didn't face a good version of Coetzee.
Coetzee was on his way out but it's still probably Bruno's best win, alongside the decsion over McCall 9 years later for the WBC title.

Bruno's resume is very poor really.
Johansson's resume is thin, but he did beat the best couple of fighters available in '59-'59.

 

OK, that is worth knowing.

 

If he was in good condition for a fighter at world level, then he would not have been overweight.

Furthermore is is known that he was using canabis in the period leading up to the fight.

 

.....
I´ve explained in detail what I did here.

There are five bouts inside those names who don´t give much information for both Bruno and Johansson: Tyson 2x, Lewis, Machen and Smith. Everybody, even very formidable fighters can lose to Tyson or Lewis, while Machen and Smith are blitzes. I explained to choklab what I think about a fellow going tons of rounds against Frazier, Liston, Williams and Quarry etc. falling in 1 round to the Swede, or Smith unable to box but landing a smash.

So I took the wins (more data, including Machen) and showed like 14 bouts to check them. Its clear to see that the Johannson wins won´t outmatch Brunos wins, also I think that the Bruno losses won´t outmatch the Johansson losses either (Patterson 2x vs Smith/Witherspoon).

So yes, if you subtract all that Johannson has that single Patterson win, but LOST to the same fighter twice as well. It just doesn´t add up.

Bruno knocked like 10 names out, while Johannson is 1-2, has a shorter resume and another three fellows on his list. It simply doesn´t add up. What you guys are doing here is pushing single accounts (Patterson, who he LOST to more than he won and Machen). You could apply the same for Mike Tyson losing to Douglas or Foreman losing to Lyle and excluding like the tenth amount of data.

1. Yes, he has that single Patterson win, but LOST to him twice in three meetings.
2. Coetzee was tough and solid, stopped in 1. Tillis was trimmed, Tyson was ringside and predicted a good bout. Bruno stopped him quicker than either Tyson or Shavers. Coetzer was solid, no shame losing to Bowe. Bugner came of three solid wins and has never been stopped like that, exept Shavers. Carl Williams was still a game fighter. He outboxed McCall.

Imho Bruno would knock a short resume 200lb fighter whos 1-2 vs Patterson + three names out. No ATGs there, no brute Smith force there, no 6'4" 220 high reach talent there.

 

How do you decide who are "names" ?

 

Because these are formidable known fighters with better winning records than 70 % of Marcianos 49 - 0.
Why are you guys pushing Machen like that but McCall isn´t a solid win here? Last time I checked Machen rarely made 5 bouts without losing, but the other is accounted of having an indestructible chin.

 

Ingo would knock Bruno the **** out.

 

McCall is a decent win.

I wouldn't regard LeDoux as particularly remarkable though.

 

That's TWO opponents in the top ten.

I love how you and Chok, are making Machen out to be one of the best in the world, while simultaneously putting down Cleveland Williams and saying he lost to the best fighters he faced. Surely you know, The Big Cat "drew" with Machen. A majority draw actually. The other judge had Williams a clear winner as did the AP (98-96), and the majority of those ringside.

"Williams the no. 5 contender felt he had turned in an upset. Most of the crowd of 10,000 partial perhaps to the hometown favorite and one judge agreed."

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48465177/the-news-review/

The double standards here are amusing.

He was also offered a bout with Liston after the Patterson trilogy for a million dollars which a win in, would've put him right back in title contention.

Had Bruno confused with Mercer.

I guess I did come off a little strong. My apologies I was just irked at the partiality shown towards Ingo in this thread. Like for example saying, Ingo beat top men, while Bruno didn't ignoring that the top men in Bruno's era he had to beat were Tyson and Lewis, a considerably harder proposition than beating Machen and Patterson.

 

You should charge Marciano rent for the amount of time he spends in your head.

There is absolutely no logical reason to bring him up in this thread other than pure obsession.

 

Million dollars for a non-title fight ?
Do you have a source for this ? That's an incredible offer.

 

I don't even care if that's true. If Ingo fought Patterson a third time for free it still trumps Liston's offer because the World Title is on the line and it was not easy to get a shot back then. Not realistic at all to bash Ingo for his choice here.

 

Apparently he was offered the million dollars AFTER his final fight with Patterson.
I'd be amazed by that, for a guy coming off two losses to be offered a record-breaking purse .... and a non-title fight !

 

Will have to look for it.