Apparently you haven't seen Cooney fight if you think Fury or AJ is above him. Cooney lost to Holmes a all time great. Got strung out on drugs and lost to Spinks. Then lost to a all time great in Foreman. AJ lost to morbidly obese Andy Ruiz. Fury was almost beat by light punching 180 pound Steve Cunnigham. Also who cares if Wlad was champ? It just shows you how bad the heavyweight division was kid. A 40 year old Wlad wouldn't have been champion when Larry Holmes was fighting. Finally who says Cooney was shot? You? The guy who never boxed a day in your life? Cooney was shot because Foreman beat him? Lol Cooney was 33 and only lost 2 times. His body wasn't broken down so he wasn't shot. My point still stands and you don't really have much of a point.
Cooney was not more skilled that Joshua and Fury. Would he be a top 10 today ? Obviously but Cooneys more like a good world level fighter, he never reached elite level like Holmes or Lewis or Holyfield or Aj or Fury. He gave holmes a good fight but imo Holmes was controlling the fight more than most people think
Cooney fought a total of 6 rounds in 5 years going into the Foreman fight. (0 rounds in 2.5 years and before that coming off a loss to a light heavy) You are not going to win a fight being that inactive against world level competition. Foreman by contrast fought 19 times in the previous 3 years. Both guys were huge sluggers but one was active and one was not. This was not Cooney of 1981. Cooney May have kicked the booze and got himself into as good shape but he still wasn’t in fighting shape. There is a difference. George knew it and applied pressure throughout the bout.
Lol I never saw Cooney throw walking arm punches like Fury and Joshua is far less skilled than Fury. Cooney never won the title because you do realize he fought in a era with far better fighters. You do realize that right? You do realize a prime Holmes would of beat the crap out of Fury and Joshua in the same weekend right? It is like saying since Charles Martin was heavyweight champion and Ike Ibeabuchi or David Tua wasn't so that means Charles Martin is better than Tua or Ibeabuchi. A 38 or so Shannon Briggs won the WBO version of the heavyweight title. Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry, Al Jones, ect never won any major title. Is Shannon Briggs better than Lyle, Quarry, Jones ect? Cooney losing to Larry Holmes is still more impressive than anything Joshua or Fury accomplished. Winning a title means nothing. Somebody has to be champion. Fury and Joshua squeaked pass a faded 39/40 year old Wladimir Klistchko. A 37 year old Corrie Sanders destroyed a 25 year old Wladmir Klistchko. So wouldn't that make Sanders better than Joshua or Fury? Nobody considers Sanders great. So my point still stands. Cooney at his peak was better than Joshua or Fury. Cooney fought in a better era. He was still a legit thread when he faced Foreman. Hell a lot of people back then thought Cooney was going to win. The moment he lost these same people will tell you either that Cooney was shot at 33 or that Foreman beating him wasn't impressive.
Who cares? It means Cooney was rusty not washed up. Learn the difference. You frequently see guys now fight once in 2 years. Fury took 2 years off and came back. Hell Bermaine Stiverne didn't fight in 2 years when he faced Wilder than second time and Stiverne was maybe 39. So Wilder beating Stiverne in the rematch shouldn't mean anything right? You want to go further kid? When Tyson Fury fought Steve Cunnigham a blown up cruiser weight Steve was 1-3 in his previous 4 bouts and was knocked down twice by 199 pound Yoan Pablo Hernandez. Yet Fury is still great right? And that win over Cunningham was one of his better wins. Are you going to criticize Marciano fought fighting 40 year old Archie Moore, Walcott and Louis or are you going to give him a pass? Are you going to give Marciano a pass for getting beat by Ted Lowry? How about Mike Tyson? He faced a old Larry Holmes who didn't have a fight in 2 years. Foreman was active and Cooney wasn't. Foreman was more active than pretty much every heavyweight contended doing that time because according to George he needed that money. Being rusty isn't the same as being washed. Being inactive doesn't take away from the fact taht Cooney was still a top level guy. If he would of beat Foreman and lets say won a piece of the title the same people who are saying he was shot would be saying something different.
The fights Ken had with those men were split decisions for very good reasons. I think Holmes is the only one who could be said to most apparently have edged Ken...but I still can't argue much with people who believe he won that fight...ANY of those fights. If Norton had only fought Holmes and never met Ali in the ring, that fight would have made him a great imo. He did NOT want to lose that championship belt, and he fought his heart and soul out to keep it. If he'd started out a bit faster, he might have kept it.
Wow, that's tough. Probably not better than Lyle, but Shannon might have stopped Quarry. Not sure on Jones.
You're delusional Joshua is far more skilled that Cooney, Cooney was a slugger an a skilled one but Aj has a better jab, more effective combinations and can pull counter efficiently. When has cooney performed a pull counter ? Let alone a decent jab. You're comparing two different scenarios. Charles Martin is trash and everyone agrees. He became champion bevause the person he fought had to pull out. Jerry Quarry is a damn sub 200 pound Cruiserweight and Aj would be the favorite against Lyle. You're looking at everything with nostalgic rose tinted glasses. Sizw matters to an extent. It's common knowledge that Wladimir Klitschko significantly improved when he trained with Emmanuel Steward. He lost to Brewster and beat him in a rematch because he improved his defense and his jab. Brewster was his last loss before he entered his peak skill level. You're just an idiot nostalgic biased person who can't see skill for what it is. Holmes is an all time great and I'd favor him of Aj and Fury but it wouldn't be competitive ? Really ? Aj and Fury are significantly larger than Cooney and box even better and pick their shots better Fury is no Lennox Lewis but he uses his size very well and can pivot and box to a tee. I dislike people like you because you just think past fighters are levels above modern fighters and dissmiss them. LOL Cooney is not more skilled than Anthony Joshua. People like you think 180 pound Henry Cooper destroys Wladimir Klitschko just because he knocked down Ali. People like you think Foreman destroys Lennox Lewis just because he was from the 70s. Styles make fights and size matters. Tyson Fury is an elite level fighter who has SIGNIFICANTLY improved since his fights with McDermott and Cunningham. Actucally did you know Cunningham was 210lb and 6'3 ? Thats the same size as prime Holmes
You sound like a big cry baby. I never brought up Cooney’s age or Foreman’s age in the fight. I brought the fact that Cooney fought a total of 6 rounds in 5 years. Plus he battled alcoholism for at least half of those 5 years. Foreman fought 19 times in 3 years. That’s a big advantage for Foreman. Cooney was a part time fighter post Holmes. He took both the Spinks fight and the Foreman bout as a way to land a huge money fight with Tyson. He didn’t do the hard work in between and lost when it came time to perform. Holmes lost to Tyson when he came Back after two years - and it’s well documented that Don King upped his purse in exchange that he take no tune up bouts. Stiverne lost to Wilder and yes Wilder deserves zero credit for that fight. The only reason the Foreman fight vs Gerry was deemed competitive going in was that Foreman was 40 nobody competed at a high level at that age back then, nobody was sure what to make of him yet. I will say Cooney looked better with Clancy in his corner for the two rounds against George than he did in the 5 with Spinks. But again that is as much of a style thing as it is with Cooney getting his life clean.
I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that Norton and Frazier simply didn't match up well with big punchers. Norton was demolished by every big hitter he faced and Frazier didn't really face any massive hitters aside from Foreman but his aggressive style and tendency to take a lot of punishment certainly doesn't seem like a great matchup for someone like Foreman unless you have a really exceptional Ray Mercer type chin
You can make certainly ask questions of the ilk but there's sizable leaps to take. Saying Norton was demolished by every big hitter he ever faced needs a helluva lot of context. In his prime he was stopped once, by an ATG great who would very likely have pulverized plenty of great fighters at his very best. If Ali wasn't about who knows what havoc he would have wreaked. He was well past prime and old by the time Shavers came about and basically shot for Cooney. Duane Bobick was a very hard puncher and Norton pumped him. Norton was potentially vulnerable against big hitters that pressured and were aggressive. Many big hitters aren't so as a blanket statement saying he simply didn't match up against big punchers is a leap. I'm far from convinced Frazier doesn't match up well against big hitters. The guy had unlimited heart and a very underrated defense. His loss to Foreman is as much a statement on Foreman's insane power and aggressive abilities as it is on Frazier. Personally i wouldn't use one loss to an ATG fighter and puncher who matched up well against him collectively as proof he doesn't match up well against big hitters. Given the sample size and Foreman's greatness it's just not much to go on. Jerry Quarry was certainly no feather fist and Frazier had little trouble there.
I agree, Kenny started off too slow against Holmes. He basically just followed Holmes around the ring the first few rounds and only landed a few glancing blows allowing Holmes to stick and move and win on ring generalship and activity. Big mistake against a high stamina rangy guy with a good jab scheduled for 15, you have to pressure him pretty much immediately. I'm not sure if Ken was worried about his stamina/pacing himself for the later rounds. He was a little older but still, never let a guy do an Ali impression and just box circles around you if you can help it even if he isn't landing anything damaging. That can mesmerize the judges and give the impression you are struggling. Danny Garcia made the same mistake against Keith Thurman giving some rounds away. I'm thinking it isn't a coincidence Ken hung out with Frazier, who sometimes started fights slow before warning up, and had the same trainer.
This is what it boils down to in the Frazier vs punchers debate. They see the Foreman performance and assume that meant Frazier was ripe for the taking--that anyone large who hits hard could've won the title that night. To suggests this makes many big assumptions, such as: -automatically assuming Frazier was a naive, clueless fighter who had no idea what to do as soon as he got hit by a big punch -frazier was helpless against anyone bigger than him who had good power -that the matchup was decided solely because of Foreman's punching power; in other words all you had to do was throw big heavy shots and you'd best joe frazier. -which leads to another assumption, that even if for the sake of argument the fight was won solely because of Foreman's power that he wasn't an exceptional case and a stand out in the power department. In other words, any guy Foreman's size who could hit could replicate it which seems to contradict the notion Foreman was an atg puncher. -that Frazier's defense was always bad and it's just that Foreman was the first person to fully exploit it. I think ultimately what it boils down to is people underrating Frazier and simultaneously underrating Foreman's performance while ignoring the skill involved in the fight. It was a master class performance and not anyone could have executed the tactics he used to dismantle Frazier. Like you said, big assumption that anyone who hit hard could repeat it and not give Frazier any benefit of the doubt. Strange to make that leap in logic when Frazier's chin held up in any other fight against good hitters such as Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo, etc. He has beaten men Foreman's size or bigger so size clearly isn't the primary ingredient. And in regards to chin, Frazier has gotten off the floor to win fights and has never been counted out (not even the Foreman fights).
