Ingemar Johansson, 1958 vs Frank Bruno, 1986, who wins and why?

You think Ingo beats Liston in '59?

Do you also think a peak Ingo-Liston is 50-50 or close to it?

Or maybe that Ingo had the best right hand in the division's history?

Maybe, that Ingo could've been Liston's worst nightmare?

If you honestly, believe any of that is remotely objective I don't even know what to say.

 

You say he was "essentially KO'd by Brian London" .... but he wasn't.
Not under either of the two generally accepted definitions of "knocked out".

knocked out as in "knocked unconscious" ? NO.
knocked out as in "unable to rise in 10 seconds" ? NO.

He was "saved by the bell" only in the sense that he would have 'probably' been stopped IF .... well, if rounds were longer than 3 minutes (which they aren't).
He wasn't "saved by the bell" in the sense that he couldn't get up but luckily the bell rang.

He got up, the bell rang, the fight ended. He won the decision. Those are the facts here.

 

That's a big statement to make. I honestly don't like Ingo's chances against The Big Cat from The first Big Cat fight!

 

And the idea that Johansson was at his best or even close to it against Brian London has simply never been proposed before, as far as I know.
It's the kind of weird **** I expect from this forum though.

Johansson was damaged goods after the Patterson fights and I think it didn't help him that he always enjoyed the high life, night clubs, late nights, celebrity hangouts, etc. his whole career. That was no secret either.
Longevity is a thing. Some fighters have it, some don't.

 

No. I'd favour Liston.

No. I'd favour Liston.

No.
He had an awesome right hand though.
I don't have a list of "best right hands in HW history". If I did, I guess Johansson would merit a spot somewhere.

I doubt it.

They are just opinions. All opinions are subjective.
I don't think they are that bad, even though I don't hold them myself.

Johansson was one of the best fighters in the world at that time and could hit very hard too. It's not unreasonable to suggest he'd be competitive with Liston.
On one hand, you could say "Machen was competitive with Liston, so why not Ingo ?"
On the other, you could say "Patterson was easy work for Liston, and so would Ingo be"
Neither of those positions are unreasonable.
Johansson at his best wasn't Machen, wasn't Patterson either, so we just don't know.
You surely must understand this.

 

Yeah, the phantom punch comment was silly. Perhaps not 100% serious ?

 

Exactly it wasn’t serious. The phantom punch put Sonny down and it is reasonable to say it was both probably a balance/ flash knockdown kind of situation... and a controversial situation.

it wasn’t a knockout punch. In fact it is debatable if the phantom punch was even a knockdown punch.

Sonny certainly took better punches.

The point I was making was that compared to the phantom punch, Ingos bingo was a knockout punch. It unquestionably was a knockout punch.

 

Got it in one. This is exactly how I wanted to be understood.

Thank you.

 

. Agreed.

I think this is absolutely clear and obvious to anyone who studied those fights.

 

The remarkable thing is how Patterson seemed to recover from the first fight !
I know both of them ended up with Alzheimers at a relatively early age, but the way Patterson extended his career until 1972, despite the beatings he took and the KOs he suffered (starting with Johansson in 1959, then two quick KO losses to Liston, then thrashed by Ali in 1965) .... remarkable.

 

Floyd was a machine. His win against Cooper was very sharp. I think Ali picked Cooper to win. It was a hard career Patterson had. The fights with Quarry, Ellis and Chuvalo were all gruelling. And yet in his very last fight, a rematch with Ali, was very competitive. All without being a natural heavyweight too.

 

Dude you're a bore. Period.

 

You're posts are consistently combinations of revisionism, generalizations and a lack of knowledge wrapped in self righteous lectures .. Ingo lived to an average age for a 20th Century European male. He had fewer fights and took less punishment than almost any heavyweight champion and only fought two quality fighters his entire career .. One was a fluke ( in my opinion ) devastating one round KO where he was not hit once and the other was Patterson .. you're positioning your point like he was some fighter that absorbed massive punishment against terrific fighters over an extended period of time which never happened .. we also don't definitively know if what he suffered was accurately diagnosed as caused by ring trama .. even in his last fight he was winning a boring , clutch and grab snore fest till the final seconds when he was clocked .. it was not a matter of any prolonged beating , just a weak chin .. Ingo was never dedicated, rarely in top condition, gained weight and showed up in poorer condition in each Patterson fight, loved the life of an international celebrity and playboy and was on the way out because he made money and knew his chances of moving forward were slim .. I give the guy credit for a couple of exciting wins, for adding a bit of drama to a vey boring period in the game and getting out early, not late ..

 

The fact that boxing related brain injuries has been proposed as the cause of both Patterson and Ingo's early onset Alzheimer's and death should be enough alone to show more respect for what these two left in the ring. I'm not the one who proposed this theory as it was widely reported after Ingo's death as a probable cause so not sure the dishonest attempt at painting this as a unique idea held by me or some radical stretch...it certainly is not.

While 76 is a reasonable age to die, it is not common to develop Alzheimer's in ones 50s and decline so rapidly. Why I worded it as such.

Not every Ingo fight is on film, we have no idea what punishment he took, the two Patterson KOs alone are enough to damage a man, who the hell are you to say otherwise?

You don't have to believe that for a certainty to respect it as a possibility. The crux of the argument you inserted yourself into is the man is being called a coward and ***** for retiring after two brutal KO losses and a bad performance where it was clear his punch resistance was declined, and you keep bringing up the final performance of a possibly damaged fighter to mock him.

Are you this classless or do I have you pegged wrong?