George Foreman Vs Rocky Marciano

Louis had a good jab and his hook was still there. His right was no longer a powerful punch. Joe's legs were dead. He won some fights on his experience. He may beat a few on the list off experience but no much more than that.

 

From Louis comeback in November of 1950 he went 8-0 with 3 KOs before meeting Marciano in October of 51. Not one. Secondly Marciano should get credit for negating Louis right. He couldn’t pull the trigger like he had used to but Marciano made it hard for him. Just look at Louis previous fight. Once again no one on the planet says that’s a prime Louis or close to it just that he was still a decent fighter.
As far as the burden of proof goes it falls more on the doubters shoulders. Marciano went 11-0 with 11KOs against men over 200. In those 11 fights if any did he have any difficulty? Think only Savold, Louis, Don are on film. And he dominated those. Once again what about Marciano and his style would make him subject to larger opponents dominating him like he wasn’t there? His record and testimonies say otherwise. Once again gaining weight is not a skill.

 

Size is everything for Marciano critics...


Unless Joe Louis is brought up...then it becomes about ability and styles suddenly. The Rock overcame a 30 lb weight disadvantage. Pictures show Louis to be lean muscle. If size is so important why does it suddenly matter if it was the best version of Louis..he was 30 lbs heavier after all and used to dealing with bigger men? Why didn't his size...knock Rocky out in in 1? What heavyweight loses power in their mid 30s? Louis demolished the only man that tried to bang with him in Savold. Rocky is a swarmer....why couldn't Louis stop him in 1 round with his size?

 

I addressed this. I concentrated specifically on the ones that have zero failed drugs tests.

nobody thinks Tillis steamrolls Joe Louis. Nobody. I’m not the one making such accusations. You listed men you think “steamroll” Joe Louis, but you cannot respond to evidence of them steamrolling any good fighters. Please List the worth of men they steamrolled.

I am not surprised you can’t go back and forth. You can’t back up your claims about non champions who would steamroll win streak Joe Louis. A former champion who had knocked out the EBU version of the heavyweight champion, and at that time had only lost to Max Schmeling and Ezzard Charles whilst holding two wins over the current champion Walcott.

you answered then backed off completely as soon as I replied with evidence that challenged the claim that Tillis and co steamroll a former champion on a win streak.

Rocky beat a win streaking former champion who was better than most prime 200 pound contenders. A former champion who you cannot prove would get “steamrolled” by any of the men you listed. You couldn’t find a single contender who would “steamroll” Joe Louis. Just a list of guys without the required credentials. Just admit it’s a weak argument that Marciano didn’t beat a prime contender over 200 pounds. When He beat a guy as good as any prime contender who was over 200lb. A past prime win streaking former champ.

 

No, stop trying to use revisionist history when I can simply watch the film and look at his record.

He did not score 3 KO's. He had ONE KO and two stoppages. One of those stoppages was due to cuts, the other was a late round stoppage and neither opponent was knocked down. Savold was heavily shopworn and way past his prime. He had hardly any power left and neglected his right hand. Do you not understand the difference between a KO and a TKO/stoppage?

Rocky was not "negating" Louis right, Louis simply did not throw it that often. MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE WATCHED THE FIGHT, HE WAS GUNSHY. Stop trying to pull a Jedi mind trick and convince people to not trust what they see.

Rocky didn't make anything hard for him. Rocky was missing by a mile multiple times in that fight and Louis had no trouble at all timing him with jabs, hooks, body shots, and using ring generalship to off set Rocky's bullish tactics and wild swinging.

Of those 11 men over 200, only 2 were rated. One was a gunshy old man in his last fight, the other was a mediocre fat guy moving up from 168. That is not enough to convince me.

Weight is not a skill, but if you're a 1 dimensional come forward aggressive fighter who can get pretty wild and sloppy with leaky defense, weight and size can definitely be an issue against a guy with equal or superior skill. Try boxing someone giving up 20+ lbs in weight with good skills and a reach advantage and tell me weight isn't an issue.

Stop trying to convince me my eyes are playing tricks on me when I can literally just watch the fights and look at the record and judge the skill for myself.

 

You’re a 110 percent wrong. Louis even stated he made it difficult for him by crowding him. And a TKO and. KO result in the same thing. A stoppage usually due to damage done by the winning fighter. Most don’t differentiate unless you’re a rabid anti Marciano individual on Classic. ..sorry only anti Marciano for plus 200 pounders*.
I don’t care personally what you see or don’t see. You think Marciano is one dimensional with leaky defense. That tells me right off the bat you maybe haven’t studied the fights enough. I challenge you to find fights where his defense is “leaky” other then the first round of Walcott 1. You’ll find it difficult to find video of him getting hit by combos. Also please define “one dimensional” ? The only thing lacking in Marcianos Arsenal is a decent jab. One dimensional fighters don’t have power in both hands, great defense, countering ability, skills like closing off a ring and controlling distance. How else could a small 5”10 guy with a tiny reach become the Hw champ?
Also three were rated and a few like Schkohr were rated at one time or another. Funny how only a guy like Don C gets the blown up crap argument. He was a good fighter. Was Byrd just don’t blown up LHW? Toney just a blown up MW? No these were high skill guys just as Don was. Obviously not on their level but look up dons record it’s better then most that challenge for a title today. With several high quality wins.
I’ve boxed countess individuals more skilled and less skilled then me weighing more then 20. Means absolutely nothing at heavy. Hardest I’ve ever been hit was by two different 205 pounders. Not the 225 pound pro (he also hit pretty good). Used to like fighting the 250 pound guys. They were slow and you could see everything coming.

 

So the distinction between KO and TKO is important to you.

The only rated HW Foreman KOed was Moorer a former light Heavy and Lyle...a late starter who took him to death.

By that measure, Foreman wasn't that dangerous was he?

Or maybe we should just credit someone for battering their opponent until they can't continue?

 

Are you that intellectually dishonest, you're using a shot 37 year old version of Louis who fought NOTHING like Foreman (even in his prime) to argue for Rocky's chances?

"What heavyweight loses power in their mid 30s?"

This has got to be one of the dumbest arguments I've ever seen in this thread. Louis wasn't in his mid 30s, he was in his late 30s (37 to be exact). And their were many fighters who lost their power at 37. As a matter of fact, I'd be hard pressed to find fighters who didn't lose power at 37.

Ali, Liston, Frazier, Tyson, Foreman, etc.

Others like Marciano and Dempsey weren't even fighting anymore at this age.

One of the most dishonest, and laughably inaccurate posts I've ever seen on this forum. Be ashamed of yourself!

 

Marciano commented after the fight that he had heard Louis right hand was diminished but he didn't expect it to be "nothing". That to me shows there was something wrong with Joe's shoulder and it was significant.

 

I've never seen anything concrete concerning Louis' right hand. I just always assumed he was using it more sparingly since he was no longer as quick as he was and the left had less distance to travel. And his left looked terrific against Savold, very stiff and quick jab and of course, a strong left hook.

I'm not sure why there is a continuous almost deliberate miscommunication on this matter...it's persisted for years on this forum. Let's try to put this to rest, all ego aside.

Nobody... NOBODY is arguing Marciano beat prime Joe Louis. But what is being asked is Joe Louis of the Marciano fight be fairly evaluated and considered for the fighter he was on that night..... A top ranked opponent with considerable size advantage and an excellent left hand. Him not being peak form doesn't change that.

All I see are hyperbolic criticisms comparing Louis to his peak form...which isn't what is being asked here.

Arguing Louis wasn't prime Louis is not a counter to the argument being presented.

 

Lyle steam rolled Earnie Shavers
Shavers steam rolled Norton and Ellis
Tua steam rolled Moorer and Ruiz

You are familiar with the accomplishments of the boxers I listed so I'm not going to waste time here. They steamrolled plenty of good fighters, guys who weren't 37 years old with shot reflexes.

And you ended up with only 2 fighters you think could possibly beat a 37 year old shopworn Louis. And you still couldn't see either of them being more than 50:50 with Louis. Am I supposed to be surprised?

If you don't want to appear to be a biased fanboy, you'd pick at least a few that you'd favor over Louis but you're clearly not clever enough to do that.

Go ahead and make the thread, I dare you. Ask people if old Louis beats prime versions of any of the men I listed.

No, it's not that I "can't" go back and forth, I'm choosing not to go back and forth because you're a biased bone head who thinks people not wanting to engage with someone whose intellectually dishonest and who shifts the goal post is somehow a "win" for you.

I can certainly back up my claims. They were all prime fighters with 2 working hands and weren't gunshy. They all have brutal knockouts over men Louis size or larger and who weren't 37 year old men with receding hairlines. Most of the men on that list gave ATG's a run for their money in thrilling battles and came close to beating them or did in fact beat them. That's more than enough credentials to beat a shot 1 armed fighter with one foot out the door to retirement.

Louis had fought Walcott 3 years prior and didn't remotely look the same. That fight cannot be used to enhance Louis standing.

Because that would be an inevitable 20+ page way off subject debate of you simply saying "nope" to every single argument I make. I knew that you were not going to change your mind as soon as you picked 2 names out of 13 and still wouldn't concede that they'd be favored over Louis. You're biased and you've held the exact same beliefs for literally a decade.

I don't need to admit anything because your rebuttals are trash.

I found several contenders who I think would beat Louis and several people agree with me. Do you dare open up a poll? You won't like the results.

It's not a weak argument at all. Literally EVERY HW champion in history other than Rocky has SEVERAL prime 200+ pound fighters on their resume. There is nothing unreasonable in expecting to see footage of a fighter beating 200+ pounders before rating them h2h against 200+ pounders in other eras. It would be like assuming Manny Pacquiao could beat up light heavyweights with zero footage of him actually fighting any light heavyweights.

You literally just keep repeating the same thing over and over and then have the nerve to say my arguments are weak.

Louis was not prime. He was often not even above 200 lbs in his prime, the weight he carried against Rocky was unsusual to begin with. He retired immediately afterwards. He himself said his legs were gone. We see him struggling to pull the trigger. Receding hair line, flab, lacked punch resistence, etc all signs of a shot fighter. It's a terrible example if you want to prove Rocky could hang with prime 200+ fighters, especially when you consider how badly Rocky looked in the actual fight.

And no, Louis was not as good as "any" prime 200 pound contender. This is just more of you lying to yourself and shifting the goal posts instead of admitting Rocky has approximately zero prime 200 pound contenders on his resume to save face.

I'm done here. Unless of course you'd like to create a poll pitting 37 year old Louis against the men I listed or you have footage of Rocky beating a prime 200+ pound contender.

 

A TKO and a KO are not the same thing...especially if one of those TKO's was the result of a cut. Now you're just flat out lying. Try this dumb argument on a casual who knows nothing. Literally everyone differentiates the two who has any sort of knowledge of the sport.

Louis stating Rocky crowded him is not the same as him saying Rocky took away his right hand. Those are two entirely different things. Try reading comprehension. Louis had several opportunities all throughout the fight to throw and land a right hand. He didn't because he was shot and his reflexes were gone.

Yes, Rocky was fairly 1 dimensional. Either pressure a guy and break him down bit by bit with non stop volume or simple swing for the fences. I don't give him credit for the latter since even an untrained barroom brawler can do that. He was a fairly straightforward pressure fighter, but a damn good one. There was nothing subtle in his approach and he lacked lateral movement and could not fight backing up.

Schkor was not ranked. In fact he had literally just been KO'd in 1 round by Walcott in his last fight. Come on man.

Rocky did not have great defense. I'm going to actually make a thorough break down of the HW champs and do some punch stats to demonstrate the numbers in another thread.

Yes Byrd was a blown up light heavy, that's why he got demolished eventually. Why Tony looked like a defensive wizard at middle but struggled to make his presence known at heavy. Once you've moved up more than 3 weight classes and you're far above your natural weight, you struggle heavily and usually even the highest amount of ring IQ isn't enough.

The fact you even compared Don C to Tony and Byrd is comedy.

The last part about weight tells me you obviously fought big guys who suck. A skilled big man can use his weight to his advantage and impose his size on you. If he's just standing there as a slow stationary target whose easy to dodge he sucks.

 

This is correct. A point I have made many times but one that won’t fit this nonsense agenda about Louis being one handed in 1951. He was just slower by then but his right hand was decking opponents that year. Watch round 2 of this fight.

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You can’t get a fair evaluation for the fighter Joe Louis still was during his comeback win streak from these guys. They need to pretend joe was this “dead man walking” so that He can’t fit as a decent modern sized ranked Marciano opponent. It’s all very silly. As is all this stuff about Tillis steamrolling Joe Louis.

 

Louis was shot and I agree that we shouldn't take much from this fight, but I think he'd beat quite a few names off this list. He wasn't ATG anymore, but he was still very smart fighter who knew how to neutralize his opponent. He schooled Marciano for the first half of the fight after all.

 

Of course he does.