Who else goes 5-1-0 over Liston, Frazier & Foreman

You're generous. I think he goes 3-2-0 or 2-3-0 at best.

It isn't unrealistic at all for him to lose both fights to Liston if he's motivated and in shape, but if we're having things play out how they did in real life and Liston is inactive and spending his days gambling, drinking, etc then he could get caught slipping. Those are his 2 "guaranteed" wins assuming Tyson doesn't ALSO get caught up in the drama and substance abuse during the off season. They were two peas in a pod, but with Tyson being the fresher guy surrounded by a tight knit team of Rooney, Jacobs, etc he might keep his head screwed on longer.

Fight of the century Frazier? Man, I don't know. First of all remember it was SIX YEARS between Liston II and Frazier I. Hard to imagine Tyson remaining 100% focused that whole time even if he stays busy with fights. Again we're assuming Don King hasn't sunk his teeth into Tyson's bank account and Robin Givens hasn't whispered things into his ear (assuming she's born earlier too). Focused Tyson vs focused Frazier would be one hell of a clash. I've been back and forth on this in my own head and reading the opinons of others and it would by no means be a sure thing even if I do favor Tyson on paper 6/10. If Tyson can't stop him in 5, man, he is going to be in for one extremely rough night because Frazier just gets stronger and stronger as the rounds go by and Tyson fizzles out and reaches a plateau of energy and intensity as the rounds go by. Let's again be generous and say by the skin of his teeth he beats the best version of Frazier.

Then it's another THREE years before the Frazier rematch. NINE years since he won the title over Liston. Keep in mind who we're talking about. Frazier was ready to die in the ring to beat Ali and he would have that same gladiator mentality to settle the score with Tyson. Meanwhile, Tyson's ego has likely inflated after going 3-0 against the 2 most dominant fighters in his division. Then on top of that, we can pretty much say with 200% confidence Don King has gotten rid of his original core team, but again let's be generous and say he still has them. Even with the same team, Tyson is Tyson and a leopard doesn't change it's spots. Assuming Frazier lost the first fight and is burning with desire for revenge, I can't imagine Tyson training with even half that intensity knowing he's rematching a guy he beat before and has been just demolishing everyone put in front of him. He loses the rematch, end of discussion. Especially if King has gotten rid of everyone, he's going through marital issues and drugs/alcohol etc.

But we have to stick with the same timeline win or lose and his very next fight less than a year later is prime Foreman in 1974. Even if he somehow beat Frazier 2x in a row in a drawn out 3 year period, I really don't see how Tyson's style, focus, and body hasn't eroded at this point. It's already a bad style matchup on paper according to several people so this would likely end up being the likeliest loss. The mental damage in particular would be devastating assuming he's gone 4-0 up to this point, it would be 10x worse than the Douglas loss because both Tyson and Foreman were big punching intimidaters and he would feel inadequate and full of doubts just like Foreman did when he lost.

Then just 1 year later he has to rematch Manilla Frazier. It has now been 11 years since he won the title. On what planet does Tyson remain focused for 11 years going through 3 of Ali's most dangerous and difficult opponents and then faces off against THAT version of Frazier emerging victories? I just can't see it.

 

To you guys saying Tyson could do it ... I don't think so ... I see him beating Frazier 3 time but probably splitting with Liston and losing to Foreman ... So he would have 1 more loss than Ali ... And I don't even know if he beats Liston one time ...

 

Jack Johnson ,Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Sam Langford all would do that in my estimation.

 

Can you elaborate?

 

Probably.

 

Foreman-Holmes...after seeing prime George have trouble with Ribalta and Young, I just don't see him taking 1980 Holmes.

Foreman had stamina problems in his prime, Holmes most certainly didn't. And for size enthusiasts, Holmes really wasn't much smaller than Foreman, so I don't see the latter bullying him/pushing him around much.

I see Foreman getting knocked down at least once, one a flash kd and the next the beginning of the stoppage.

possible Larry takes a fall. But that might make it even worse for Foreman in the end (Weaver, Snipes, Shavers and yeah, I know George was WORLDS better than those guys).

Now, if we're talking FRAZIER Holmes, that's a different story. Though Larry wasn't as susceptible to the left as he was the right, Joe's constant pressure was more ferocious than Norton's, and he was more of a do-or-die heart-of-a-lion mother ****er than Iron Mike was. FOTC Frazier might even stop Larry.

I don't however, see Joe winning twice in a row against LH.

 

Keep in mind, this is a declined version of Liston who'd fought less than 5 minutes in three years. I'd favor a peak Liston but probably not this version.

 

I think this is a very salient point when it comes to considering things. I'm pretty sure Holmes, Holyfield, FOTC Frazier, prime Foreman, and Bowe could beat the Liston that Ali beat. Not as sure about the Liston that smacked the living yee-haw out of Patterson...I think even Holmes and Frazier would have major problems there.

 

I can't see Holy winning ANY of those fights.

Lewis ? Maybe some, but five is unlikely.

 

Excellent post. Similar to how I see it.

 

I agree with a lot of what you said here except that Tyson hit a lot harder than Frazier and would have destroyed Bugner, Frazier was a great fighter, but I feel a prime Tyson was bigger and better.

 

Three of the fights would have taken place 99-00 and I think he'd lose all of them.

 

For me, only Joe Louis would be able to replicate this but not in the actual time line Ali did. It's what truly makes him the greatest heavyweight ever IMO.

I've long thought that Joe beats any Liston. I think his technically superior jab would let him out-jab Liston. Sure, Sonny had that sledgehammer, but it was slow, and somewhat predictable. Perfect for Louis' cross-counter. In his early years, he wasn't exclusively an Arguello-esque pressure fighter either, he was a fully capable, well-rounded boxer-puncher with great footwork. He wouldn't just be walking into Liston's wheelhouse. I think he'd take him out late after softening him up with the cross and partly taking away Sonny's lead hand. The rematch would be an absolute slaughter.

I take Frazier to stop Louis in an almighty war, first time round. That suffocating pressure and nasty left hook constantly, ruining Joe's rhythm and forcing him to spend most of his energy making space and not punching. In Louis' own words, he hated pressure fighters. I think Frazier beats Louis in the first fight, then Louis makes similar adjustments to the rematch with Godoy, and stops Joe. The third fight could honestly end in one lol

Louis-Foreman is the hardest to predict IMO, because Louis' could get clobbered and that's it, Foreman goes home early with the belt. That said, I do take Louis here, for similar reasons why I take him over Liston. Foreman was very open to the cross, and was even more open to a follow up. It just happen often coz you needed the arsehole to hit him with them, and most people's arsehole dropped when they had to fight Foreman. Joe's wouldn't, and him and Chappie would know to loosen Foreman up with a jab to the body and to paint him with that straight right. Keep feeling the cross-counter over Foreman's mummy guard, maybe stick a left hook on the end or even just another cross, weave under anything massive and get the **** out. Joe's lateral movement in his early days was more than good enough to keep out of Foreman's way, with the caveat being that he'd have to get Foreman's attention, and more importantly, respect early doors. Once Foreman's starts fading, he needs to double down on the combos while still remaining cautious, on the whole. He'd be able to do it IMO, and there aren't many fighters with intangibles like Louis'. I trust him to get it done here.

Like I said, in Ali's actual timeline and the conditions Louis would have to be in, I just can't see him doing it. Or anybody, for that matter. Actually, I think all three of my picks here are completely against the grain.

 

Harder puncher? Of course. More athletic and explosive? Yes. "Better" fighter? Well that depends on how you define it. Tyson had all the aesthetically pleasing things like power, speed, fancy head movement, combinations, etc. Frazier was more reliable when it counted. Always got off the floor, always gave it 100% effort in training camp, stuck to a game plan, didn't know the meaning of quit, had a amazing endurance and work rate, wasn't as well rounded but he was damn good at infighting and pressuring, etc.

Yes Tyson would definitely win at least one match with Frazier, no doubt in my mind. But 3 fights spread out over a 4 year period? Questionable. Especially because Tyson's state of mind was so erratic when he was young and he could easily lose focus or lose his team just like in real life. That's why it's not so clear cut.

 

@djanders scratch that. Not all of these men are necessarily in their prime at the time Ali faced them, so I do think Holy would do pretty damn well.