You stated that if Foreman fought all the champs prior to him, he had the potential to be upset by one of the slicksters. When asked by another poster to be more specific, you posted this Do not hesitate to correct me if you feel I've misinterpreted you, but this seems to me like you are picking Walcott to beat him (or at the least, giving him an even chance of doing so). Well, first and foremost, he was a puncher. That was his defining trait as a fighter. Not as dangerous as he was as a LHW perhaps, but still a legitimate heavyweight threat. I think the fact he was able to knockout a young, green, but still game Walcott illustrates this. Even if you add Murray and Pac to the list I posted, it doesn't really change things a whole lot. He still has a handful of wins and a handful of losses, with the losses mainly coming against the guys closest to Foreman's class as a fighter.
Regarding post Ali George Foreman Monte Cox had this to say - George was devastated by his loss to Ali, after taking time off he changed trainers hiring Gil Clancy and began to fight at a more measured pace. Although George had some success even at an old age fighting in a more controlled manner, the comeback version was never as good as the original seek and destroy version. In his first comeback fight George Foreman took the most dangerous opponent he could find. After 15 months of ring inactivity he took on Ron Lyle who just 10 months previous had knocked out highly regarded heavyweight hitter Earnie Shavers. Lyle had come off the deck to defeat Shavers in a match between two of the divisions all time biggest hitters. Lyle was himself a super-heavyweight who stood 6’3 ½” had an 80 inch reach and weighed 220 pounds of solid muscle. He could jab, hook off the jab and had a very powerful right hand. Foreman was now trying to pace himself and began to fight at a more relaxed tempo. The result was that George was not quite as aggressive as he had been in his earlier fights. The first two rounds were tentative as George attempted to hold back and there was frequent jabbing by both men. Foreman proved his heart and chin in this fight when it exploded into a wild brawl reminiscent of Jack Dempsey and Luis Firpo some 50 years previous with both men hitting the deck. Foreman demonstrated that he could win a war of attrition and come out on top by knocking Lyle out in a see saw battle that ended in a knockout victory for Foreman in the fifth round. Even a rusty and hesitant Foreman was nearly impossible to beat in a brawl. I get a good laugh when boxing people think that all you have to do to beat George Foreman is "box" him. Is that it? Is that all you have to do? Go ask Ali about that one. Those who do hold on to this error and believe that any “clever boxer” type could beat George often give the Jimmy Young fight as an example. Foreman showed up for this fight in San Juan the day before the fight and didn’t give himself time to get acclimated to the heat. He paced himself, fighting in his newfound measured style and did not throw a significant punch for the first 5 rounds. This was all wrong for him. The Foreman of Zaire would have tracked down Young, forced him to the ropes, went to the body with power and belted him out inside of a few short rounds. The 1973-74 Foreman, the one who cut the ring and really went after his man was the best Foreman. The George who lost to Young never really went after him. The Foreman who fought at a measured pace just was not the real George Foreman. Frank Lotierzo said this - Foreman, in trying to prepare for a rematch with Ali, fought Jimmy Young who was a crafty boxer, hoping to be better prepared for Ali's style. This resulted in Foreman trying to pace himself against Young. He performed poorly, attempting to be a boxer and basically throwing away his God-given-devastating punch. By Foreman trying to go to Plan B, he lost a decision to a fighter who should never have been in a position to defeat him. If Foreman had fought Young like he did Ali, he would have stopped Young inside of four rounds because Young could not stand up to the fierce assault that Ali had. There is no such thing as a Plan B for a George Foreman. Watching the fights shows the above to be true. I've been saying it for a decade and a half. Young Foreman pacing himself was a much much inferior product. Pacing himself in an Ali rematch would not have helped him as seen against Young. Even if Ali decided to go to the ropes Foreman throwing less would have led to Ali throwing more or simply countering what he did throw.
Jeffries could stop him late by going to the slats early. If it was set for 25 rounds, I see Jim stopping a gassed, depleted George in the 23rd.
Foreman was preparing for an Ali rematch? I didn't know talks between the 2 camps had begun at that time.
Ali was the champ, the only champ. All roads led to Ali. Foreman (to his credit) was lusting after him. Ali from many accounts wasn't as keen for whatever reason. It was believed a victory over Young would propel him to the rematch. No fight had been signed but he certainly wasn't changing his style for the likes of Norton and Frazier etc.
This idea that an aggressive Foreman could just belt Young out easily doesn't seem to be supported by much evidence. Who are all these slick, clever boxers Foreman beat pre-Ali? Moreover, you had Peralta a former light heavy taking Foreman into the late rounds so clearly he wasn't blasting everyone out early. Moreover, Young was able to weather shots from the likes of Shavers. He showed himself to be pretty durable with better survival instincts than Frazier or Norton.
Show me a clip of him where you think he had fast feet. Regardless of if you think he had quick feet or not, Foreman was good at cutting off the ring. If Ali gave up on that strategy after 1 round and remarked that he was surprised at his speed, I don't see how this is relevant. Johnson had his fair share of stoppage losses tho, some to men who aren't even in the same stratosphere as Foreman in terms of punching power. Was dropped by middleweight Ketchel as well. He might have had great defense and reflexes but he'd need to fight the perfect fight from start to finish and prevent Foreman from doing what he wants to do. Yes Johnson was busier than Young. Almost everyone was. But that's why Foreman had trouble with Young in the first place, he rarely engaged and constantly made you looks silly. Johnson liked to mix it up on the inside, wrestle, parry, and throw body shots. He also liked using uppercuts, all of which would put him in range for Foreman's bombs.
There is nothing in the reports about Walcott "gassing out", apparently Simon simply smashed him in the jaw and produced a clean knockout. Where is your evidence? He lost a UNANIMOUS decision to Layne when he was a 36 year old veteran AFTER he had mixed it up with guys like Charles and Louis and had experience fighting for the title. Enough excuses. Walcott was even a 5-1 favorite. Layne basically just pressured him all night with non stop aggression while suffering from bad cuts. You're trying to spin this "part time fighter" narrative like he was completely unprepared and lacked the resources and experience even though he would go on to beat Charles less than a year after the Layne loss! He had fought for 15 rounds TWICE before facing Layne and the Layne fight was schedule for 10 to begin with! As for his record against punchers, I need to update the list: Louis (0-2) Rocky (0-2) Simon (0-1) Layne (0-1) Ray (1-2) Sheppard (1-0) That leaves him at 2-8, with 1 KO win and the other win being a a majority decision. How is going 2-8 proof that he "cleaned out an era of punchers"...? That's incredibly inaccurate at best, and flat out false at worst. Well Foreman wasn't "merely" a puncher either so that's a moot point. Both Louis and Marciano's best assets were their punching power. I fail to see how this helps Tunney's case, mentioning fighters who could have given us some gauge on how he'd do if he drew the color line and neither fought black fighters nor beat anyone remotely Foreman's size. If Ali couldn't zip around the ring and use footwork to evade Foreman, I also fail to see how Tunney could outbox him for 15 rounds without getting caught at some point.
Even if that's true, in the case of Walcott he consistently got wobbled when nailed on the chin even past the age of 30. Everyone says he was a late bloomer whose style evolved late in life, yet he was KO'd 3x in his 30's by Louis and Rocky and retired before he was 40. Foreman improved his defense and paced himself better. When he was younger he didn't bother blocking if he couldn't swat punches away and just ate shots to land one if necessary. Wlad I don't think his chin got better, he got better at using the jab and grab style and made it harder to hit him. When Joshua landed clean on him he was dropped 3x and got knocked out.
Wlads chin def improved. And he got knocked out in his last fight mid forties after being inactive. Defense def improved but he fought better competition then sanders and Brewster and managed not to get knocked out. I’m open to being swayed one way or the other on the topic as there really isn’t any definitive reason for it. Some say it’s your conditioning...who knows? Walcott’s level of competition vastly improved as he got older and better. That can’t really be argued. Not only that he was consistently winning before facing off against the champs. In close fights with all of them (won the first Louis in my scoring of rounds we saw). He also fought some heavy hitters. That being said I wouldn’t bet on him to beat Foreman but I certainly can see Janitors point that Foreman eventually drops a fight to the cuter boxer types. My bet would Be Charles on his best night. And even then I wouldn’t be confident about it
Better counter puncher, better head movement, better at surviving when hurt, possibly the better jab. Better on the outside.
Try with overweighed Johnson against Moran at first. You fail to understand the difference between slow feet and economical footwork. Johnson didn't use a lot of movement, but he could jump out or go inside very quickly. He wasn't slow, his style wasn't about dancing on toes but it doesn't mean he couldn't use quick footwork. Johnson wouldn't try to run from Foreman, so I don't get this argument. Sure, that's why I wouldn't say that Johnson is clear favorite. Foreman would be the best fighter he ever faced, I just said that Jack could give him fits with his style. It's important to note that Johnson was stopped a total of 3 KO losses in the first 20 years of his career. Two of them were when he wasn't even a legit HW, the last one was against Willard in 26th round when he was overweighed and didn't care about fighting anymore. Saying that he had his share of KO losses says as much about his durability as it does about any other fighter. Are you really using Ketchel KD here as a legit argument? If so, then I can use Young knocking down Foreman as well and it has more credibility. That's Johnson style in summary. That's what troubled Foreman, he didn't like opponents trying to wrestle with him. That's why he pushed them around, but he wouldn't be able to do that easily with Johnson. Just like he couldn't with Ali or Young. Good point, he shouldn't try that punch too often.
Those old gloves were a different game. Foreman would have to adjust or he’d be risking injury. And he’d fare pretty terribly in 10+ rounds in the middle of the day.