What would have happened if Archie Moore had defeated Rocky Marciano in 1955?

I think there would have been a rematch. Rocky would certainly have been disappointed about the loss, but believe he would like a chance to reverse the loss and also become the first to regain the title. If he lost the rematch to Moore, he probably would then retire and Moore would meet Patterson.

 

Imagine if Archie beat him he avenged the loss and Rocky with no 0 to protect hung around long enough for fights with Ali and Patterson old or not it woulda been cool even If it meant Archie would beat him which I think under the right circumstances could have happened he was easily one of the best ever.

 

Archie would of reigned until Patterson. Marciano would be ranked with the likes of Johansson and Baer. Archie might have made a voluntary defence against a journeyman for a payday before meeting Floyd. I don’t think Rocky gets a rematch unless it’s in the contract. If he does regain the title Moore vs Patterson happens a bit later and Rocky’s ranking is probably alongside guys like Tunney and Dempsey and not up there with Louis and Ali.

 

Don't you think you're being a bit harsh on Marciano to say that he'd be ranked alongside Baer and Johansson? Even with the loss, he'd be 6--1 in title fights, certainly a lot better than either Baer and Johansson did.

 

I don’t think he fights Patterson right away. Marciano would get his rematch. Then maybe he fights Baker again. Or Jackson. Think he goes more for the big name. Eventually runs into Machen or Zora as they were up and coming by then. Maybe Patterson would be forced to take a different path to earn a shot? History would def have been changed though.

 

Yeh I agree that’s a bit much. I think he’d be alongside Tunney and Dempsey. I do think that if he did regain the title he’d retire and as he himself said his body was really struggling. So he’d retire with a 49-1 record. Still a great record but his standing in history definitely changes. Even being a 2 time champion doesn’t match 49-0 as it’s his undefeated record that keeps him in these sort of discussions.

 

Here again, money would probably have been the deciding factor. If huge money was offered to both for a return Moore vs. Marciano, there would have been a Moore - Marciano 2. I say HUGE because it probably would have taken that to get Marciano to hang around for another fight. If the Rock won that, I see him retiring. No Marciano - Moore 3. Then Moore probably gets a big payday to defend against Patterson and this alternate timeline returns to the track we're more familiar with. As opposed to some others, if Rock came back and won the rematch, I would think slightly more of him, not less. 49-0 or 49-1 doesn't change things much in my eyes. To me, coming back to regain the title is bigger than 49-0.

 

First of all, about Rocky's reputation and his record 49-0. It looks as impressive on paper as it sounds but for me it's not sooo important. I mean between his first two professional bouts he had some amateur fights and he lost s split decision after 3 rounds against the strong and more experienced fighter Coley Wallace. In his 21st fight he controversially won against Tiger Ted Lowry after 10 rounds. Many ringsiders felt that Lowry deserved the win. However, Lowry was a crafty, experienced and good fighter + very tough to knock out and he was definitely a step up and the best opponent so far for the still inexperienced Marciano. His first win against Roland LaStarza was also very close and disputed.

Of course, it is a great record, also that he never lost by knockout as an amateur, but I don't think that e.g., Gene Tunney's record wasn't as great just because he lost to the great Harry Greb once. Or Sugar Ray Robinson reportedly finished his amateur career with an 85–0 record with 69 knockouts. As a professional boxer he only lost in his 41st fight against Jake LaMotta...

I also think, if Rocky Marciano would be replaced by other alltime-greats like Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Joe Frazier... They would most likely beat all of Rocky's opponents too.

There are also some rumors about fixed fights due to the crooked and mafia-controlled boxing business. For example, in "The True Story of Holocaust Survivor Harry Haft" is written that some shady characters visited Haft before his fight against Rocky Marciano. Well, I don't know if that would be really necessary. Harry Haft lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he faced Marciano. Nick Tosches has indicated in his book "The Devil and Sonny Liston" that Archie Moore took a dive against Rocky Marciano. I just can't imagine that. Moore floored Marciano in the 2nd round and took helluva punches over 9 Rounds. If that fight was fixed, Moore should posthumously be awarded for Greatest Acting Performance of All Time. There are also rumors that the mob wanted Walcott to win against Marciano ...

All in all, I don't think this has any influence. Marciano won all his big fights against good opposition. For me, he is a real legend and an alltime top 10 heavyweight.

Bert Sugar stated in his ESPN documentary (Greatest Heavyweights) "The quality of fighters during Rocky Marciano's reign was terrible". I don't agree with his statement and I think he likes to exaggerate sometimes.

I mean he didn't draw the colorline like some older Champions. He didn`t duck top contenders like Floyd Patterson (at least for a few years). There was no Cruiserweight back in his day and no different belts just one universal heavyweight Champion. Of course, his opponents were nowhere near as strong as Muhammad Ali's, but who else had such great opponents like Ali? Joe Louis has beaten better and stronger opponents, because he had more fights and title-defenses, but the average title contender wasn't better than Marciano's.

Jersey Joe Walcott was old but still very good. He was something like a Bernard Hopkins of his time, also due to his discipline and clean life. Ezzard Charles was arguably past prime, but still a strong contender. Joe Louis was over the hill but still good. Rex Layne was an upcoming top prospect with wins over Walcott and Satterfield until his devastating loss to Marciano. Roland LaStarza was a good and often underrated boxer. Don Cockell wasn't that bad either and was a better ranked and probably stronger opponent than e.g., Brian London for Patterson or Ali later...

Perhaps his opponents were not so strong compared to modern heavyweights (H2H). But H2H just plays a subordinate role for me. However, it is not completely insignificant e.g., Sonny Liston was an obvious H2H juggernaut...

I think it's much more important and fairer to judge fighters by their performance in their time and how many great fighters were involved at that time. Times have changed, like general prosperity, contemporary history, training methods and devices, nutrition, PEDs and also the boxing philosophy…

I once read in an old newspaper article from the fifties that the perfect heavyweight champion is between 6′ 0″ and 6′ 1½″ tall. To tall would be to uncoordinated and clumsy...

I don't know the perfect height for today's heavyweights, but might be something like 6′ 6″.


Okay, but now to Archie Moore. I think it was a big and important win for Marciano. There were some pretty strong boxers during Marciano's era, who were still young and taller, like Nino Valdes, Bob Baker and Clarence Henry. At the end Archie Moore has beaten them all. Thus, he was something like an unofficial mandatory challenger.


Well as already mentioned Marciano was down in the second round. Marciano was up at 2. Referee Harry Kessler thought that the mandatory eight count was in effect (was not). He counted till 5, remembered and halted his count. Thus, Marciano had a few extra seconds to recover. Archie Moore complained about this situation later. Did it change the outcome? I don't think so, but who knows?

If he would lose, I think he would get a rematch. Marciano had an influential manager. Furthermore, a rematch would arguably be very popular and financially successful. Marciano would be the favorite, but Moore would still be dangerous and tricky if he would fight a bit cautiously and wouldn't brawl to much with the stronger Marciano. If Marciano would win, he could be the first two-time heavyweight champion instead of Floyd Patterson. I guess that he would still retire soon, due to back problems, family issues and dissatisfaction with his manager Al Weill.

If the rematch would take place in 1956, he would still be active for some extra time. He would also no longer have to defend his unbeaten record. So maybe he would be hungrier for a comeback fight a few years later. Would be Ingemar Johansson heavyweight champion from 1959-1960. Nobody knows, but probably not…

 

Marciano retires, and Moore fights Patterson, and loses.