Does Larry Holmes go undefeated against Joe Frazier's title/post title opponents ?

In a timeswitch a 28 year old Larry Holmes fights Buster Mathis in 1968 then follows Joe Frazier's timeline in all Joe's title defences in sequence plus Frazier's post title bouts (Bugner - Ali II) etc. Does The Easton Assassin remain undefeated ?

I say that Larry gets by with easy fights on the whole - has tough defences against FOTC Ali and a few shakey moments with '73 Foreman but wins. However by the time he meets Ali in their second fight,Larry is now over 34 years of age and Ali wins a narrow decision. Bouts with Quarry,Ellis,Ali again and a second go with Foreman ensue.

How does it all go ?

 

We'll omit the Jumbo Cummings debacle of 1981.

 

Ehh doesn’t go undefeated that’s for sure. Bonavena gives him a hard time. Foreman could win (think one or the other would dominate I def flip flop on it). And of course Ali.

 

Yeah, i see the same thing.
He would have an easy time with Manuel Ramos, buster mathis, dave zyglewicz.
He would have cut Quarry to pieces and wins by TKO or a decision if the referee doesn't pull jerry out of the fight.
Against Ellis, it would probably be a fairly even fight for the first 3-6 rounds, until Holmes takes control after using his heavier and better jab.
Jimmy lose a decison but there is chance he gets stopped.
Holmes stops foster by mid TKO i believe.
And then we have Ali.
Let's say Muhammad was rusty, had only 2 fight since his comeback, was not ready, he and his trainer didn't take Larry seriously.
In this case, Holmes wins a close fight IMO.
Larry is well capable of winning the “battle of the jabs” & if this happened it would mean that he controlls the centre of the ring and this would be a big problem, as all Ali’s best work flowed off his jab. Holmes by UD.
He beats the crap out Ron Stander, terry Daniels.
Against foreman.....I would still favor Holmes.
Larry i think would have a hard time dealing with im early, but he woudl try to stay away from him early, doesn't allow him to cut off the ring, survive the first rough 5 rounds, wear Foreman down and beat him up late and wins by decison.
If Holmes is still the champion, i cannot imagine him fighting joe post title opponents, but logically i see him fighting Foreman's title opponent.
But if Larry somehow relinquished for whatever reasons, he beats Bugner, Quarry and Ellis once again.
He might have lost to a more prepared Ali thsi time in the other 2 fights.
Against Foreman 2 ,it's a 50/50.
Holmes would be a little bit done at that time but the post rumble in the jungle george
paced himself fighting in a newfound measured style he adopted after the loss against ali.
With that style, he almost lost to Lyle, took 6 rounds to beat frazier and got grilled by Young.
I would still probably favor Holmes.....maybe....

 

No. He barely beat a 35 year old Norton, I think Foreman can get him out of there. Quarry has chances but obviously an underdog, 71 Ali is a good fight, buy I favor Ali. The rest Holmes is of course a huge favorite against.

 

Wonder how a, FOTC Ali deals with Larry Holmes?
And Holmes taking on unbeaten Foreman??

 

1971 Ali still a little rusty for Holmes who wins a close one. Ali wins rematch by narrow UD or split.

Holmes stops an exhausted Foreman by the tenth or eleventh round after suffering a few painful moments courtesy of George's devastating raw power. This includes a knockdown early on similar to the one Holmes endured against Earnie Shavers. Also with the right hand.

 

Can't fault those picks pal.
Holmes jab is the key in the Ali win imo. His chin and heart, the key to victory over Foreman.

 

He might beat the aging rusty FOTC Ali. I see Foreman stopping him tho.

 

Very surprised many are picking Holmes over FOTC Ali. I think even this version of Ali was better than a prime Holmes.

 

It was a pretty big "might" for me. Ali improved his post exile form after this fight.

 

I agree. The Ali of the second Frazier bout was better than his FOTC incarnation. Muhammad may have lost a little speed in between the years 1967-71 but,in my opinion,none between '71 and '74 and he was more at home in his post-exile body by the time of his second fight with Frazier. After regaining the title in Zaire,,he started a steady decline - more so post-Manila.

 

He beats everyone of Frazier's opponents with exception of FOTC Ali, and
very possible Foreman. Let's start with my reasons for Foreman to win.
most who's watched the fight in Zaire automatically assume Foreman's
endurance was poor. It wasn't , it wasn't as good as a prime J.Frazier, but wasn't
as bad as E.Shavers either. Foreman's issues were caused but Ali's
mind games, that caused him to fight possibly one of the dumbest fights
in the history of pro boxing. In most of his fights he was calculating and
measured.
Holmes didn't possess the gift of gab or the arrogance of Ali .

Foreman would be much more methodical against a fighter like Holmes .
The blind rage we saw in his fight against Ali in Zaire wouldn't be an issue.
Holmes was very susceptible to overhand rights. Almost every time he
was put on his butt it was that punch. Foreman used a excellent overhand
right and a better than average jab
. Also Foreman was excellent at shrinking the ring, his ability to
cut off the opponent was better than most heavies in history.
I see Foreman eventually getting Holmes out of their if the fight
is pre Zaire . Post Zaire Holmes wins .
Post Exile Ali though he didn't have the foot speed he possessed
early in his career his hands were still faster than Holmes. Also
he was a much better combo puncher .
Ali wins a close but unanimous dec.

 

As I stated and posted a link about. Larry Holmes didn't want any part of Foreman when they were both 28 or so years of age. Because Ali laid against the ropes and got lucky against Foreman doesn't mean Larry Holmes would. Larry would beat Quarry probably, Ellis, possibly lose to a younger Ali

 

That's about the way I see it. I don't think Ali would win the rematch, though. To me only peak Ali beats peak Holmes, and that by either a close UD or split.

Though he's my second favorite fighter ever, Foreman h2h just wasn't as good as Holmes in his prime. Being stopped hard by a well past it Ali, knocked all around the ring by Lyle, and schooled (even KNOCKED DOWN!) by Jimmy Young proved it imo. People could harp that post Zaire Foreman wasn't prime...gee, he was just over 28 when Young beat him. Holmes himself became champ at 28 (granted, he didn't have the wear and tear).

There are factors that could be held against Holmes as well, but I can't see any of those fighters beating 1980 Larry. Only FOTC Frazier. But that's just my opinion.