What if on Sept 14 1958, Eddie Machen had kayoed Ingemar Johansson?

Eddie then fights Sonny or Floyd or both. Since Info hasn't knocked him out, he's still very aggressive and less technical than he is known for. Perhaps Liston gives him his first knockout defeat in a short thriller. Floyd he beats.

 

I think Machen would likely have gotten the shot if he had defeated Ingo. I give him a good chance at that stage of his and Floyd's careers to defeat Patterson who was as yet not fully matured physically in 1959 as Machen, who had already reached his prime physical stature. Patterson weighed only 182 pounds for the first Johansson fight. There is currently a thread running about the first two Patterson-Johansson fights. I don't think enough (any?) emphasis is given in that thread to the fact that Patterson put on 8 pounds of muscle between the first and second fights with Ingo. The 190-pound version of Patterson who kayoed Ingo in their second fight would have defeated Machen, IMO. I'm not not so sure that the 182-pound version would have been able to do the trick. He sure wasn't able to do it against Johansson!

Liston wasn't that high in the ratings during the time frame you have posed. If D'Amato aggressively dodged Machen for a year or so, then maybe Liston would be an obstacle for him. But even then I think D'Amato would have preferred Machen to Liston as an opponent. Of course, D'Amato linked Liston to the mob because Carbo's friend Palermo was controlling him. He also linked Machen to the IBC because Flaherty had no qualms allowing his fighters to fight for the IBC. And D'Amato was adamantly against both the IBC and Carbo. So who knows? Folley was in the mix too. D'Amato might have stalled around long enough to require a Folley-Machen fight, but then interest in both of them might have fizzled like it did in the real world when they fought a stinko draw. However, I think the pre-Ingo Machen would have defeated Folley. As I have posted before, the Johansson fight took a lot out of Eddie.

Richard, you've made me go down the rat hole of idle speculation, a place which I try to avoid. In fact, I'd like to suggest to the gods of this forum that they create a new category by separating fantasy fights from historical and technical discussions. The "what if so-and-so" fought "so-and-so" line of discussion has swallowed up the classic boxing forum, IMO.

 

Richard, thanks for the "Like." This is to let you know that I've added quite a bit to my answer since you posted it.

 

No, please don't take my comment personally. I have a few peeves and I like to vent now and then. I could have limited my answer. I guess. I certainly do prefer discussions about styles, historical development, and historical context rather than those that pose a question about who would win a fight between, say, James J. Corbett and Evander Holyfield.

 

Hey Richard, I love your "what if" scenarios, they are very creative and thought-inducing. My only complaint is your imaginations blows mine out of the water .

I believe had Machen fought Ingo as he did against Williams and Liston, he would've won via UD or maybe even late KO. I think he just went in aggressively as he had no respect for Ingo's power as he was virtually unknown and got blown out subsequently. He chased a rematch with Ingo, going as far as taking him to court regarding the issue.

But to answer your question, Had Machen defeated Ingo, I still don't think D'amato and CO will have allowed him to fight Patterson, and if they did, I think he would've had a very reasonable chance of pulling off an upset (their '64 bout when Machen was a shell of himself means next to nothing to me) though I would've had to favor Floyd.

 

To tell you the truth, Cus D'Amato was never going to allow Patterson to fight Machen. Nor was he going to sign for Nino Valdes, Zora Folley or Cleveland Williams (much later). Wasn't going to happen. Cus was looking hard at Henry Cooper, Willie Pastrano and Joe Erskine. Anyone who would not pose a threat. It looked like it was going to be Cooper but then he had the audacity to price himself out, so the next offer went to Brian London. His chances became clear when even the BBB of C nixed the bout for London. Of course he told them what they could do with their edict and fought Patterson anyway. So the next title fight was signed for the following month and who is Cus going to sign? The fact that he chose London after London lost to Henry Cooper tells me he had no shame in who he signed. So I think he would sign for Ingemar Johannson, despite losing to Machen. Of course with a loss hanging over his head I doubt it would be signed for Yankee Stadium, but I could still see the fight happening.

 

I think you're right. The forum is swarming with fantasy fights. Richard posts the best fantasy fights though.

 

I can only assume he becomes Floyd Patterson’s next challenger. Would he have won ? Not sure

 

Although I understand the concept of this thread, I find this a rather puzzling "What If" scenario considering the ease in which Ingo decapitated Machen.