Mike Tyson had a better career than Larry Holmes.

So who were the guys that Tyson beat "that were that good"? Were Berbick, Smith and Tucker better than Shavers, Norton and Cooney? I just don't see it. Not saying it was the other way around either, rather that they are fairly on par. Norton of course accomplished much more, but maybe that was to a degree off set by his age. Maybe. I sure don't see Berbick & co as superior, though, that's for sure.

 

But no one Tyson beat was all that good either, so what kind of counter is that?

They were the best around in '78 and '79.

Yes, he was. But he was highly ranked when Holmes faced him.

Leon, not Michael.
People forget Leon was quite highly ranked in 1981.

He fought them just before they established themselves.
We have to regard them as already very good.

How about Shavers in September 1979.
Who would you rank above Shavers at that time?

I think Holmes would tally more.
In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Holmes beat as many in four years as Tyson did in four years.
It has to be close, at least.

For example. Holmes beat Shavers, Norton, Evangelista, Ocasio in 12 months. I have good reason to believe they were all RING ranked. That's 4 already, between March 1978 and March 1979.
(He beat Shavers again in September 1979)

At the end of 1979, Leroy Jones, Lorenzo Zanon and Scott LeDoux were all in the RING rankings .... Holmes beat all three within the first seven months of 1980.
In 1981, Holmes beat Leon Spinks, Trevor Berbick and Renaldo Snipes.
I suspect all three were ranked in the RING magazine rankings (though Snipes, due to the controversy of the Coetzee, possibly was not?)

^ That's NINE or TEN (one of which Holmes beat twice) fighters who were probably RING ranked when they faced Holmes.
I haven't even got to Cooney.

^That's all between March 1978 and November 1981. Less than four years.

If Tyson ever did a whole better in four years, let's hear about it ....
(I think you should perhaps give up any hope of Tyson's four year run beating any eight years of Holmes ...)

 

Hope I didn't sound hostile, as that was not my intention.

 

I suspect people making their arguments against Larry Holmes really haven't looked into it.

As I said before ..... Tyson's #1 contender in end-of-year RING rankings was Holyfield in 1988, and Holyfield in 1989 ... Tyson fought unranked Bruno, #2 Williams and #7 Douglas instead (who beat him!) ......... and Holmes is getting criticised for not facing his #1 ?
Holmes's #1 in 1980-'81 was Weaver, who at least he already beat very shortly before (June '79).
Sure, criticise Holmes for that .... but why ignore the same thing in Tyson's shorter reign ??

Underneath Tyson in RING rankings 1989 are : Holyfield, Dokes, Damiani, Witherspoon, Norris.
Tyson goes for the next one down .... Douglas .... and LOSES ....
But apparently people think Holmes did much worse than that.

 

No I disagree....look at the Frans Botha fight

 

No ...Berbick lost to Holmes before he beat a Thomas

 

Can we agree that Buster Douglas is better than some of the guys that Larry Holmes fought ?

 

I would say that anybody with a title, is a significantly better scalp than Cooney, and I think that you have phrased the question incorrectly.

It is more a question of whether Norton and Shavers, are better than Berbick, Smith, Tucker, and Spinks.

Probably not collectively.

As for Cooney, I would put him more in the same bracket as somebody like Ruddock or Bruno.

 

Would we be justified in saying that Norton was never as good as Foreman and Frazier?

Would we be justified in saying that Shavers was arguably never as good as Quarry, who was himself never in the A crop?

Now these are Holmes's two standout wins.

 

Yes but these are often held up as being among Holmes's best wins.

That in my eyes, definitely put's a question mark over the quality of his best wins.

I understand that Tyson's era was not the best, but he can probably do batter than this for his top five.

 

Yes, but we probably don't need to.

I think everybody agrees that losing to Douglas was a cluster f***.