If Marciano Had Faced...?

I agree. Also Williams took a round from Liston (I’d argue 2). I very much doubt Marciano would do so.

In a prime for prime battle (hope Choklab doesn’t see this ) I’d actually put my money on Williams. He had a half foot or so on Rocky, 30 pounds, was stronger, faster, hit harder, and was even the superior boxer. He also had a enormous style advantage.

But in ‘54 Williams would’ve been far to green to handle Marciano.

 

Jesus this has to be a troll post for Williams. Land of make believe in here

 

Please dispute my points instead of baselessly labeling me a troll.

 

I think he's referring to the fact that you keep dwelling on Williams loss to Satterfield despite Williams being a green 20 years old, not fully developed kid who took the fight at last minute without having been in the gym in weeks against a much more experienced dangerous slugger in Satterfield. Williams was also years away from a ranking. It means very little in the grand scheme of things.

 

Please. Always an excuse for Williams but no actual proof of results. You are who you beat and he beat no one. His defense was terrible he had very few tricks and his chin wasn’t great. He had nice speed and power but that’s it. He was essentially a heavier Bob Satterfield but not as good a boxer. I see zero evidence he could have possibly taken Marciano. The men of the time, mutual opponents, boxing writers alike would have a good laugh reading this thread.

 

If you feel that way, please take the time to prove me wrong but you won't because everything I said regarding his loss to Satterfield is verifiable and true and no opinion to the contrary can be entertained unless you are one with an agenda.

Also aren't you the one who insists the 28 year old Marciano was still green and had yet to reach his peak against Louis, but dismiss Williams being a 20 year old last minute substitute as an excuse? Talk about having your cake and eating it to!

Do you think we are all stupid? You don't become the no. 2 contender by "beating no one". The only reason more aren't on his resume is because other contenders weren't exactly keen to step in the ring with him.

Also untrue. As @George Crowcroft noted, he showed very underrated defensive ability against Liston.

This is just ridiculous. If he was this limited and crude fighter you're making him out to be, Machen an excellent boxer and cutie, would've taken advantage of this and defeated him easily with no problem. Instead he garnered a majority draw with one judge having Williams the clear winner as did the vast majority of the 10,000 ringside.

Untrue. The only person who knocked him out in his prime or even close to it was Sonny Liston which their is absolutely no shame in.

No argument.

I admittedly don't know to much about Satterfield other than his bouts with Baker, Williams, Valdez, Charles, etc.

Maybe, maybe not. Marciano was far more accomplished, and had a far better record but he also didn't have to share an era with a peak Liston and Ali, two H2H monsters.

When I assess two fighters in a H2H match-up, I don't base my pick on how great the fighters are. I look at things like style, speed, power, size, skill, chin, etc and Williams seems to have the edge in most of these which is why I picked him. I also think Marciano would lose to other big punchers like Lyle, Ruddock, Bruno, Shavers (I go back and fourth with them, but mainly lean towards Marciano based on some of Shavers losses at or near his prime to fighters of less than stellar quality).

They had all but two mutual opponents, who faced a prime Marciano and a green Williams. Williams had a far easier time with one of them (Simmons) even with his lack of experience.

Regarding "the men of the time", Liston thought very highly of Williams so much that upon winning the championship, he stated he would give a title shot to the next man who beat Williams.

As for boxing writers of the time, unfortunately I'm not one of those guys take the words of people like Bert Sugar and Larry Merchant as gospel. I don't know (and despite your claim neither do you) if they would've laughed at the prospect of a Marciano-Williams fight nor do I care.

 

So you admit, even in '55 Williams was "so green" yet you continue to hold Williams' loss over a year prior to Satterfield against him... No agenda here!

 

I’ve said Marciano wasn’t prime for Louis not thag he was green. No man with over 30 professional fights under their belt should be considered green. Rex Layne beat Satterfield with less fights under his belt and prob less of an amateur background as he started boxing late. He knocked out Satterfield in a tough fight. I also would never shame a man for losing to Ali or Liston. No shame in that . But if a man only has one solid win on his career and plenty of losses why should we take seriously an argument he would beat a top ten hw ever? I wouldn’t pick Williams to beat anyone in the top 30 let alone top ten. A mans record means something. His competition he beat means something. It means I can gauge him by the quality of wins and losses. Williams has one good win...most good contenders have a minimum of two the great ones have four plus....Williams has one. That means something. It means he wasn’t that good and if you don’t believe me look at my post five best wins of the best contenders and tell me cleveland makes top thirty of the best contenders ever based on his resume? Someone as good as you think he was should have notched some major wins. I put Williams in the Shavers and Curtis area. Hit like a mule but had plenty of flaws. There are arguments for styles make fights but they at least have to be great at their craft like a foreman or Tyson. Williams wasn’t in Marcianos league and I base that on the reality of his performances against men of good to great skill.

 

Almost very little to none of my assessment on Williams comes from the Satterfield fight although it doesn’t help his case. I’ll wait patiently for those great Williams wins to prove he could compete...wait and wait. Satterfield on film looks far better then Williams but most understand Satterfield had flaws. For some reason Williams gets a pass for his poor chin poor defense and less then adequate skills for a top level fighter.

 

I dunno Prime for prime if you held a gun to my head and I had to pick out of the fighters he faced and those on the list I would say a prime Machen can get it done.

 

Prime Williams claim to fame is being beaten to a pulp by Liston with no adjustments Sonny walked him down through a bit of fire and a broken nose and broke his spirit.

 

I'd give Machen an excellent shot but put a gun to my head, I see him getting ko'd in the championship rounds while ahead on the cards.

 

Williams did better than anyone else who faced a prime Liston (with the probable exception of Machen) and was the only one who ever hurt him. Even Liston conceded he thought Williams was going to knock him out.

And yes Liston clearly made adjustments against Williams. He timed him, and led him into counter punches.

 

They're called "paragraphs". You should try 'em some time.