Who Wins My Fantasy Welterweight Super Series?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by George Crowcroft, Jul 4, 2021.



Who Wins?

  1. Jose Napoles

    4.0%
  2. Floyd Mayweather

    16.0%
  3. Tommy Hearns

    53.3%
  4. Kid Gavilan

    6.7%
  5. Roberto Duran

    6.7%
  6. Oscar De La Hoya

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Felix Trinidad

    1.3%
  8. Manny Pacquiao

    12.0%
  1. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm going to apply a catch-all rule, and dictate that Napoles' skin isn't a factor in any of these match-ups. His unique blend of creativity, speed, power, toughness and footwork with an intriguingly rhytmic approach for such a counter-punching wizard, makes him a very interesting candidate. The battles which he, Gavilan and Duran would rage would be among the most disturbingly violent ever seen at the highest level. Unfortunately for Mantequilla, I'd take him to narrowly lose both. Duran was a little too good, and the Keed was a little too big. With cuts stoppages off the table, the only man here I'd expect to stop Napoles would be Hearns - who's simply too long, too quick and too powerful. He'd deny Napoles any and all opportunities, and after a round or two of working his jab, it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. That said, both De La Hoya and Tito are overmatched. Neither have the arsenal Hearns did, nor the skills of Duran or Gavilan. They're only edges are size and power (which only Tito has an edge in). Napoles would easily take away Oscar's left, and beat the daylights out of him afterward; vs Tito, he'd simply take away his space, and counter him shitless. Trinidad was a physical specimen unlike most have seen at 147, but he wasn't particularly advanced skill-wise. Napoles would tie him into knots with his counters and defence in the pocket. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the Napoles who pieced Cokes would beat Mayweather and Pacquiao. Counters Pac, pressures Floyd. Too good a welter for either of them.

    Mayweather isn't good enough for Duran, Napoles and isn't big enough for Hearns of Gavilan. He'd likely beat Tito, but he did absolutely nothing at welter to convince me he'd beat a prime De La Hoya, and the fact that he almost lost to an old one doesn't fill me with confidence. The only fighters here who I'd be comfortable favouring Floyd over are Tito and Pacquiao.

    Hearns annihilates the naturally smaller guys. Duran - obviously; Floyd, Pac; Napoles; they're hopeless vs Hearns. No chance at all barring a fluke punch. Tito and De La Hoya are both taller orders, but I don't give them much more than a puncher's chance either; they just have a bigger one. De La Hoya's overreliance on his lead hand and being quicker will lead to some painful exchanges with Hearns. Tommy'll come right over the top of that lead with the cross and he'll jab his head off in the interim. De La Hoya has a good chin, but better than Duran's? Cuevas had a good chin, as well. Tito's style will either lead to him getting wiped the **** out, or landing his hailmary. He'll play it safe on the back-foot at first, and Tommy will walk him down with the jab, and I think Tito will be forced to stay on the back-foot, because whenever he'll go on the offensive, Hearns'll catch him with everything. And I doubt Tito can take that. Even if he could, it's long away from that and winning.

    No, it's Gavilan who's got the best chance. And it's one I'm willing to go with. The Keed's got an almost unrivalled chin amongst all welterweights. Robinson supposedly landed flush combos on Gavilan and he didn't even blink twice. One of the hardest punching middleweights ever (Eduardo Lausse) failed to have him in trouble in two attempts. If there's someone you can rely on to take Hearns' power, it's Gavilan. And as a style, he's pretty bad for Hearns. He has the head-movement and the
    foot speed to get up close, he has the speed and defence to avoid taking too much punishment, and he has the inside game to really exploit Hearns there. His constant pressure will be extremely worrisome for Tommy, and Gavilan was excellent at imposing a pace which others weren't comfortable with. I think he'd make Tommy out-work himself, and fade down the stretch. Keed takes over big late - possible knockdown? - and wins a close decision, IMO. Easily the closest match and between the two clear finalists.

    The Kid cleans the slate with the rest IMO. Too big, too bad for Mayweather and Pacquiao; too big for Napoles; too quick and relentless for DLH - you're not beating a peak Gavilan by fighting in thirty second spirts; and too tough for Tito, whose skills would be exposed again - don't rely on power vs Gavilan, it'll get you nowhere. Duran is the match-up which I'd be worried about for Gavilan, since it's a tough one. Basilio's upper-body movement, aggression and cross-counter were really tough for Gavilan to overcome, but he did overcome it. And Duran wasn't as strong as Carmen, or as active. But at the same time, was much, much more sophisticated. He could very well find his nicce on the inside and work from there from bell-to-bell, making sure Gavilan isn't in position to do his best work. But then again, how likely is that he can sustain that? Even Robinson with all of his otherworldly firepower was resorted to boxing this guy. You stay away from him. I think Duran takes Gavilan down to the wire, but loses a razor thin decision in a fight that probably shortens both fighter's careers and, ultimately, lives.

    An in-shape Duran had the legs to beat Sugar Ray Leonard. He can beat anyone here but Hearns', and likely would do. Tito gets mangled, God fears what Duran would do to De La Hoya; Pacquiao would be an insane war - as would Napoles - but ultimately, that extra bit of class which Duran has over them would add up over the course of fifteen/twelve. The inside game really ruins them IMO. Of one thing is abundantly clear from Mayweather's entire career, its that he didn't like pressure fighters. Chavez, Hatton, Maidana, Castillo, Cotto, etc; all caused him issues. He isn't beating the best fighter ever, especially when that fighter is a pressure fighter.

    DLH has a good chance of beating both Pac and Floyd, but I'd probably only make him favourite over Mayweather. He already lost to Tito - and yes, he did lose - and he has no chance vs Gavilan, Duran, Napoles or Hearns. Trinidad likely beats Pacquiao but loses to Floyd; gets smashed by Duran, Hearns and Napoles, and badly beaten by Gavilan.

    I went with Gavilan.
     
  2. Dodgy Syrup

    Dodgy Syrup Active Member banned Full Member

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    George, if Duran and Pacquiao met up how do you see it ending?

    I know you said Duran probably had too much, but could he actually knock Pacquiao out, or would it be a bloody war of attrition that could go to points?

    It's often overlooked that these figures from back in the day had to train for/and fight over 15 rounds, not 12.
     
  3. Salty Dog

    Salty Dog My name is Buck and I'm here to... Full Member

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    This. For some reason I didn't see Hearns.
     
  4. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Huh. I was going to go with Gavilan as a dark horse pick as well. Guess I don't need to do a write up now.
     
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  5. Dodgy Syrup

    Dodgy Syrup Active Member banned Full Member

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    Does he hate Mayweather with a passion or something?
     
  6. Dodgy Syrup

    Dodgy Syrup Active Member banned Full Member

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    What do mean when you say Napoles skin isn't a factor, George?

    What i mean is, why would it be an issue when matching him against certain people?
     
  7. DoubleJab666

    DoubleJab666 Dot, dot, dot... Full Member

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    Where? Still on PBC's roster...:lol:
     
  8. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    In the two fights I recall of Duran vs southpaws (the Camacho-farces aside), he showed an insane ability to control and occupy the space with his lead-hand vs Hagler, and some incredible shifting footwork vs Leoncio Ortiz. The way he closed the gap, moving in with a cross or an uppercut without being caught squared up over and over again was brilliant. And anyone who can completely perplex Marvin Hagler has no issues vs southpaws. His timing was brilliant too, Hagler was genuinely baffled. The way he set up the uppercut vs Ortiz was insane.

    I think he'd apply this know-how to a Pacquiao fight. Time Pacquiao when he made his move, get respect and heighten the effectiveness of his feints, control the space then start shutting down Pac's offense. I don't think Pacquiao would like having someone in front of him who's able to keep up with Pac, and close the gap after Pacquiao pivots off. Duran would just shift forward as he did so and look to grapple and grab his forearm. He'd really do well to work the body and take away Pacquiao's space. Manny's no infighter.

    I think Duran being in control of the fight, knowing how to shut Pacquiao down and the fact that he'd give Manny a bad beating on the inside (and he'd be able to get there consistently, no doubt about it) lead to a possible stoppage over fifteen. To give Pac the benefit of the doubt, I'll say he goes the distance.
     
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  9. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think it could go a few ways. Robinson could go in with a similar mindset to Leonard, knowing how good and powerful Hearns was. He'd start to box, look to stay outside of his range and move away. However, if he does that, I think he'd end up similar to Leonard where the jabs landing and the reach is too much. Robinson would have to change things up, hurt Hearns, and get him to either back up or plain knock him out. I think he would do, but it'd be a very hard fight for Robi before then.

    Or he could think along the same lines as Hagler and just go out all-guns-blazing and look to knock Hearns out. I think he'd be able do it, and I think it's the most likely strategy he'd employ.

    IMO, Hearns just doesn't have the chin to beat Robinson. If he had Gavilan's chin, he wouldn't lose to anyone at 147 IMO.
     
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  10. Dodgy Syrup

    Dodgy Syrup Active Member banned Full Member

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    In other words, it's like Duran cancels out all of Pacquiao's advantages, nullifying him in a sense?
     
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  11. Dodgy Syrup

    Dodgy Syrup Active Member banned Full Member

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    I agree, I think Sugar Ray just has a bit too much.

    But, mate, what a fantastic match up of styles.
     
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  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's always an issue with Napoles. He lost his title to Bully Backus because of it, lost his title to John H Stracey because of it, his number one position to LC Morgan because of it. He cut badly in the first Muniz fight, and the second. Actually, it's hard to find a Napoles fight where he didn't cut badly.
     
  13. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Absolutely. Two unbelievable technician and the two most ferocious punchers in certainly welterweight, and arguably all of boxing history. Just one had a much better chin.
     
  14. Dodgy Syrup

    Dodgy Syrup Active Member banned Full Member

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    Ahhh, I see...you mean he was very prone to cuts and bruises?
     
  15. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I wouldn't go that far. Everyone's gonna suffer with a prime Pac's speed and power, but stylistically, Duran does have everything to shut Pacquiao down IMO. And his biggest strength is probably Pacquiao's worst area.