Nicked Dodgy Syrup's thread again, but this time with my all-time favourite division. To satisfy IntentionalBigot, I've bracketed them. This content is protected Spinks Jones This content is protected Ward Foster This content is protected Canelo Beterbiev This content is protected Moore Kovalev Winner of brackets four and one face one another, and so the winners of brackets two and three in the semifinals, then those two winners face in the final. I've left off a few important LHW guys in favour for those who you general scrubs will have actually heard of, and I've left off Ezzard Charles coz he'd beat everyone easily, sail off into the sunset and laugh at you suckas.
We've got our first general forum response! True to form, didn't answer properly, says something ridiculous and doesn't explain anything about it. We're up and running!
To caveat my choices here. My indepth knowledge of boxing goes back to the early 1990s. Anything rated before then is based on what I have read about them and their resume. Bracket One Spinks Jones- Jones to win this, was too elusive at LHW in his prime. I dont rate Spinks that highly. Bracket Two Ward Foster- Foster to win this clearly, Ward didnt spend much time at LHW and his two best wins were very dodgy vs Kovalez. Ward didnt prove himself as a great LHW. Bracket Three Canelo Beterbiev- Beterbiev for me as the bigger puncher. I cannot see Canelo being able to withstand the size and power difference in this one. Bracket Four Moore- The best LHW of all time and a real puncher. He would have worn Kovalev down in this one. Kovalez is mentally weak when you put it on him. Kovalev Semis Jones vs Moore- Moore to win a decision in this one. I feel that a LHW Jones isnt as fast and could be hit and worn down vs a true great. There was that vulernability at LHW that he never had before at MW and SMW. Foster vs Beterbiev- Very tough one to call. Artur is a massive puncher as is Foster. Foster struggled only against bigger men when moving to HW and Beterviev isnt a bigger man. Final Moore vs Foster- Moore to win, as the consensus greatest LHW of all time
How do you know? That's just your opinion & completely unprovable. Roy beat some excellent LHWs but let's be honest , he hardly faced a murderers row over his 15 or so prime(ish) LHW fights did he…. Certainly not one you could glean he defeats all the best LHWs ever from at least.. like anyone else you have no idea how he would get on against the multitude of styles & abilities the top boys at LHW would bring.. Especially if you put him in the era before steroids came along.. & against the 15 round guys.. The division has produced amazing fighters down the years… That bring all sorts of problems for Roy… Billy Conn, Ezzard Charles, Gene Tunney, Joey Maxim, DM, Qawi, Archie Moore, Saad Muhammad, Moorer, Stevenson, Bivins, Loughran, etc... Ye let's just write all them off because Roy was 'an athletic freak' & he beat Hill, Griffin & a 40 year old McCallum.. Ok. Roy was a phenom & undoubtedly a great but if you actually cut down to the substance of what he did at light heavyweight it does not merit him beating every light heavyweight ever. He wouldn't even face his main rival of his own era either by the way… win or lose, regardless, he still didn't face him… And that will always be a stain on his LHW run..
Spinks-Jones Spinks Ward-Foster Foster Canelo-Beterbiev Canelo Moore-Kovalev Moore Spinks-Foster Foster Canelo-Moore Moore Foster -Moore Moore winner
On the other hand, Ward is one of the smartest fighters that ever laced em' up, imo and he is physically strong and keeps his composure when things go sideways. Hard to pick against a peak RJJr, but out of the guys you have listed, I'd give the best shot to Ward. I think he'd try to make it an ugly wrestling match and try to stay close to Roy and bully him in the clinches and coming in and out of them. Do unexpected things at unexpected moments. Wear him down and stop him late, behind on the cards. That said, think I'll end up voting for Roy.
Bracket 1- Spinks Bracket 2- Foster Bracket 3- Canelo Bracket 4- Moore Semi-Final 1- Foster Semi-Final 2- Moore Winner- Moore
Quarterfinals This content is protected Michael Spinks vs Roy Jones Jr. Jones was a freak of nature, but he wasn't unhittable. I never got the hyperbole about his defence. "We never knew how bad his chin was coz he was never hit" No, stop deluding yourself. He was hit, he showed a good chin up until weight draining and back-to-back KTFOs ruined it. He's fast, he's slick, he's an insane athlete, but he wasn't unhittable in a Sweet Pea/Locche-esque manner. Watch him get teed off on by Tarver, take clean combos off Hopkins, and get worked over to the body by Merqui Sosa I'm not saying he had a bad defence, but he isn't unhittable. And when Spinks catches him he's going down, and he's staying down. Jones would have to get aggressive to deal with Spinks. Mike's too tall, and he's smart enough to not let Jones bait him into leading. Even if he did, we'd likely be looking at a Hearns-Leonard scenario, apart from its Jones with the fragile chin and Spinks the one who's gonna spark him out. I can see Jones trying to come over Spinks' jab, potshotting his way to winning rounds, trying to find that thin line between being too negative, and being KTFO'd. However, I don't think that line is exists vs Spinks. He'd have to work around Spinks' jab and avoid his power, I don't think he can do both. Spinks KO9 or Spinks UD15, depending on what Jones does ----------------- This content is protected Bob Foster vs Andre Ward This is an interesting style match-up, but not one I think would end up being all too competitive. We have a guy, who's tall, rangy, powerful and fast; underrated assortment of skills and with a great record at the weight - his weaknesses, seems to be the other's strength's. As a long and thin limbed guy, Foster's two natural weaknesses were a lack of great durability, and a lack of a great infighting game. But even then, he wasn't a trepidatious, skittish fighter who seemed like Bambi on ice when pressed. He was cool and calm, and was able to find you even close up. So I suppose Ward's 'dark-art' type of infighting could potentially cause Bob some struggles but I doubt they'd win him the fight. However, Ward's struggle with Kovalev's jab, which was inferior to Foster's, and his power, which was also, inferior to Foster's. The things Kovalev does do a little better than Bob, Ward also struggled with. The ability to dictate the range down to an inch was something Kovalev still doesn't get enough credit for, and his straight right was a bit neater than Bob's ever was. That said, Foster has the advantage of being much less 'robotic' in his application of things. Kovalev was extremely fluid, but he liked to reset everything after an exchange and go again (typically European in that regard), and he was also reluctant to punch with someone. Foster on the other hand, relished in getting off first and sliding his hooks in when someone's trying to find him. He wouldn't give Ward that second to get to grips with everything again, and he'd be on him. It'd end up as a bigger, quicker guy with a hellacious arsenal walking down a smaller, but better, technician. Foster stops him at some point IMO. Ward has the attributes to cause him a few issues, big ultimately, doesn't have the overall style, or ability. ----------------- This content is protected Canelo Alvarez vs Artur Beterbiev Given that this one could actually happen, I'll just make this my official prediction going forward - and coz it could actually happen, it's over twelve not fifteen. Beterbiev is the bigger guy, a fully fledged light-heavyweight and is tied with Kovalev as being the biggest guy in the whole tournament (both Foster and Spinks competed at HW, but that was in the same day weigh-in era, and both could comfortably weigh around 172 the morning of the fight, neither are built as big as Beterbiev or Kovalev). Canelo is also a big guy though, he's comfortably been around 180 on fight night at SMW (iirc) and from memory he actually weighed more than Kovalev on the night too. Beterbiev's strength here is literally his strength, he needs to go and impose himself on Canelo. Go out, wear him out, work the body and physical crush him. However, I highly doubt that's what'll happen. Even if Canelo doesn't punch as hard as Johnson or Gvozdyk (and he doesn't), but he's a much more authoritative ring general, and won't show Beterbiev nearly as much respect. Unlike Gvozdyk, he'll walk him down as well. Johnson showed how Beterbiev reacts when you get his respect, but a puncher like Johnson only got it for a brief moment. So maybe Canelo can't? But then again, he got Kovalev, Jacobs and GGG's. **** knows Beterbiev is pretty open, and Canelo's counters are rapid and extremely creative. He'd be able to paint him like he did Angulo on the way in, but at the same time, if he's that aggressive he's gonna be hit by the hardest brute he's ever been in with. Going to Beterbiev's body seems like the best strategy. I think Canelo may end up reverting back to the counter-puncher he was before GGG II. Beterbiev seems like the type to try and walk through Canelo, not box off the back. If Canelo gets his respect, I take Canelo with too much issue. If not, Beterbiev crushes him like a beer can in the late rounds. I have a sinking feeling that it ends up like a cross between Valdez-Berchelt and Canelo-Angulo. If it does, Canelo will go up by some distance, in my estimation. If forced to pick, I take Canelo PTS. ----------------- This content is protected Archie Moore vs Sergey Kovalev Moore vs Kovalev would likely be one hectic fight. It's such a shame there's so little of Moore in his absolute prime. In the footage we do have, we see one of the most complete fighting machines and physical powerhouses of all-time, and one of the fighters who's genuinely worthy of the accolades he gets. The fact that in this footage he's in his mid-to-late thirties, and early forties only highlights this. Kovalev's weakness appear to be an average chin, a weakness to the body, and that his offense could end up basic. Take away his 1-2, and he's left with very little. Archie Moore is quite possibly the worst person to overrely on a 1-2 against, AND have a bad chin and weak body vs. The only thing I can see here as a route to a Kovalev victory is power. Archie's chin was good, but not unbreakable. He seven stoppage losses, some excusable, some not. His main defence does have an inbuilt flaw which is that if timed wrong, serves only to amplify the power of a cross, rather than defend it. Look at how Durrele's broke it with an awkward rhythm. Kovalev may be able set something similar up by closing the distance between them and getting Archie to time it wrong. Maybe, I think it's unlikely. The Marciano and Durrele fights confirmed that Moore was extremely difficult to stop, IMO.
Bracket One Spinks Jones I think Spinks 'jinxes' his way to a late KO here. He is by far the most proven and intelligent LHW Jones would have ever fought, with legitimate chilling power to boot. Jones relied heavily on setting and controlling the rhythm in order to set traps and generally do as he pleased. There was also no consistent jab, as a real weapon, from Roy at 175lbs, whilst Spinks was both commanding and decidedly offhanded, with no real set rhythm to his style. I believe Spinks would establish himself as the ungainly ring general in the mid rounds before setting up a KO shot later on. And for you general forumites, De Valle was able to catch and knock Jones down, so I think Spinks could land a few shots too. Bracket Two Ward Foster IMO a genuinely competitive fight, though with a decisive winner. I would pick Foster to establish his jab in dominant fashion before unloading the straight as the bout progresses. Ward has his moments, as he did against Kovalev the first time, but Foster is just too good. Foster decision. Bracket Three Canelo Beterbiev Cheeky picking active fighters. Honestly, most of the forum may disagree but I find this one more competitive than it should be. I think there is a lot Canelo can exploit from Beterbiev, such as how he walks forwards onto shots when throwing his own. I think the overhand right would be a very good counter for Canelo here, especially if he boxes short. That said, it is hard to pick over Beterbiev's power stamina and strength. Beterbiev. Bracket Four Moore Kovalev Again, a competitive but clear affair. I do think ruleset would have some impact here, but not to a decisive result. I see Archie struggling early with the jab, and power, of Kovalev. However, this is Moore, and he would likely adapt with both rights to the body and overhands to the head to nullify Kov's jab activity, before establishing his own jab as counter and then following that with left hooks to body and head. I think Archie manages to decisively break the Krusher down over either 12 or 15. Moore does everything Ward can do 10x. Size isn't much of a factor either imo, considering Moore was a big LHW who beat bigger fighters (like Valdes) and had an awesome HW run, fighting as high as 196lbs himself. Moore decision, likely late stoppage in '50s ruleset.
That leaves me with: Spinks vs Moore Foster vs Beterbiev Finale worthy fight, the first. Also a fight that has been done here hundreds of times, so I'm not really gonna go explain it too much. Basically, I favour Moore. He has the intelligence, attributes and intangibles to withstand and adapt to everything Spinks throws at him. A close, hard one for Archie imo, but I believe he adapts and takes the nod over 15. Moore decision. As a Boxer, Foster is quite clearly the better man with that jab and 1-2, timing his man expertly. However, Beterbiev has that incredible physical strength and power. Still, I find it hard to favour Beterbiev considering the opposition we've seen him with - Gvodzyk was ladning and he isn't Foster. I think if he did win, it would be through sheer mauling and size, and he would have to be careful with Foster's own power, too. The logical bet, for me, is Foster, probably by decision.
The match-ups are four vs one and two vs three. So it'd be Moore vs Spinks and Beterbiev vs Foster, not Spinks vs Foster and Beterbiev vs Moore.
